WARNING - FLAM CITY BOAT RAMP

Discussion in 'Gateway Catfishing Club' started by Manny, Jul 31, 2009.

  1. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo
    I recieved an e-mail today from Chief Shockey of the Arnold Police Dept.

    He states that Arnold parks does own the facility. So there will be no legal usage of the facility at night for now. Vechicals parked in the area after night COULD but probably wouldnt get a ticket for being parked there.:confused2:

    Night fishing would be unlawful there unless a nice cop sees no problem with it that night.:confused2:

    He left me a number to call him with any questions, so I called and he said he did not know about the water way. And that he would get back to me on that:confused2:

    So I guess for now if they can see you from the facility even if you out in the water you could be asked to leave.

    It would be up to the Parks Dept. to extend the facility hours.:confused2:

    WHAT NOW ? I have wrote the administrator already. I guess the parks dept. would be the one to MAKE the LAW/RULES

    Does any body see a black and white LAW here?
     
  2. olejer

    olejer New Member

    Messages:
    1,738
    State:
    Herculaneum Mo.
    did he say who owened it?
     

  3. RIVER-RAT

    RIVER-RAT New Member

    Messages:
    3,128
    State:
    MO / MT
    I don't quite understand.....if I launch my boat during the "legal hours" and fish till well after dark, they could write me a ticket for leaving my vehicle parked in the parking lot??????? What would be the charge?? I'm not there, so it couldn't be trespassing. Illegal parking at best.

    Kutter, what do you suggest? I utilize that ramp, not as much as most of you but enough that this causes concern to me.
     
  4. RIVER-RAT

    RIVER-RAT New Member

    Messages:
    3,128
    State:
    MO / MT
    Hey Manny, would you mind forwarding that email to me?
     
  5. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo

    He said Arnold owns it, Why there is a MDC sign there he dont know. He does not make the laws he enforces the law he says.
     
  6. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo
    Im not to good at it. Cant figure it out with out a direct e-mail address from you.
     
  7. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo
    Hey River Rat, I was able to copy and paste it in a PM let me know if you dont get it.
     
  8. Scaley Cat

    Scaley Cat Member

    Messages:
    213
    State:
    Missouri
    The MDC may just be leasing the ramp to provide public access and Arnold rule may apply. Truman access in Jeff. Co. was leased to MDC from Rush Island Power Plant for years. Rush Island security use to patrol it. Now MDC owns it I believe. Just thought I would throw that out there. You would be surprised how many access are not owned by the state.
     
  9. theonecatfishbob

    theonecatfishbob New Member

    Messages:
    4,100
    State:
    Wright City, Missouri
    To me it doesnt matter who owns it really. I think you should be able to look at the rules and say it is or is not legal to fish here. To imply that it depends on which officer comes on the scene is plain old stupid. Looks like a bunch of residents need to ban together and visit a meeting. If the city owns it then the people still own the city do they not?
     
  10. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    I want a copy of that email also. Boy do I want a copy of it. If he actually said what you state, he may have a lot more problems to worry about. Openly admitting to selective enforcement based on what?

    Yes RAT, the police here have been saying all along that if you parked your trailer on that lot and went fishing in your boat till well after dark, you would/could get a ticket, have your truck/trailer impounded and when you return, arrest you. That appears to have been the threat all along and that is why we have been trying to get clarification. It's not posted at the ramp/park. There is a sign showing this is an MDC park/ramp. There is also a sign the city put up saying the ramp is closed 1/2 hour after sunset. No mention of why/how Manny got kicked out for bankfishing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2009
  11. DWB

    DWB Member

    Messages:
    984
    State:
    Missouri
    Man, it is getting to be thin pickings around here. Maple Island is silted in, launch and park on the cobbles or CB and risk having your vehicle busted into and your chit stolen OR launch and park at Flamm and risk impound and arrest...

    Seems like the real answer here is to divert the cops from Flamm city up to the cobbles and CB. And then any hoods they arrest are given a shovel and sent up to Maple to clear out the silt. Wala! Problem solved AND four ramps opened up for us law abiding fishermen!:wink:

    Tomorrow I will cure cancer.
     
  12. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    Dan, you are the man!!!!:wink:
     
  13. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo
    Manuel,
    I am Chief Shockey with the Arnold Police Department. Mr. Unrein has forwarded me your emails. I understand your concerns about being told different things about Flamm City and fishing after hours. I have researched the matter and information was obtained for the Missouri Department of Conservation. On their web site, it clearly states that Flamm City area is not owned by the MDC. The area in question is owned and up keep is done by the City of Arnold. With that stated, the hours posted are the right hours that have been set by the city. That area lands under Chapter 12 of the Wildlife code. I have talked to the Parks director and she is going to bring it up to the parks board and see if they want to change the hour that people can be in the park for fishing. I am also glad you have brought up the point that my officers are not all on the same page. I will make sure that all officers are aware of the problem and make sure they all enforce the law the same way. I hope this helps; I know it is not the answer you were looking for but the hours posted are the hours for Flamm City area. If you have any questions, please give me a call at 636-296-3204. Also, the following is the web page link to MDC web site, which indicates that they do not own Flamm City. www.mdc4.mdc.mo.gov/applications/moregs/,oarearegexceptions.aspx?txtareaID=81.

    I hope this helps clear up this misunderstanding. Again, if you have any further questions please don’t hesitate to give me a call.

    Chief Robert Shockey
    Arnold Police Department
    636-296-3204
    rshockey@arnoldmo.org

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  14. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo
    Here is the email ( Above posts )

    When I called him he gave me the run around of weird rules.:confused2:
     
  15. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    Ok, that is not the same as the impression I got from you first post. He must have told you the other things when you called him. By reading his email, I find no fault. As for the selective enforcement, he states the opposite. He appears to agree that it isn't right and is hinting that the Parks Supervisor is the one that we need to contact to get the law changed.

    Those of you who use or want to use, Flamm City Ramp or wish to bankfish there, might be interested in sending an email indicating your unsatisfaction with the current ordinances governing the Flamm City Park.
    Send them to:
    Susie Boone - Director of Parks and Recreation
    sboone@arnoldmo.org
     
  16. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo
    Exactly Kutter, he was very different on the phone versus the e-mail I got which was still very gray.

    So as he said the park closes after dark to everyone in the e-mail.

    But he might turn the other way on the phone. Meaning you could not would get a ticket.( Thats selective harvest).

    It will only be solved by writing the parks dept.
     
  17. DWB

    DWB Member

    Messages:
    984
    State:
    Missouri
    I'll write up a nice form letter and post it here for folks to copy and paste as they wish. I just need help with a few facts first.

    1. What does the sign say right now about hours of use?

    2. Who is Ms. Susie Boone's boss and what is their email address?
     
  18. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    Susie Boone,
    Director of Parks and Recreation.
    July 31, 2009

    Ms. Boone,
    As a resident of Arnold and as a catfisherman who regularly fishes the Mississippi River, I was disheartened today to read an email sent out from Police Chief Shockey. This was in reply to questions concerning Flamm City Park. In the past, we have fished from the bank and used the ramp to launch or load out boats to catfish at night. We were told today by him that we can no longer fish after dark at or from this park. Catfish have long been known as fish that feed at night and many Arnold residents like myself have been using that ramp for many years to go out on the Mississippi River to fish for them. Most nights I fish, will not find me returning till 1 to 3 am. Many residents also catfish from the bank there at night.
    Might I offer a solution. The Missouri Department of Conservation, has many parks and ramps and find this solution to works quite well. They post signs saying "This park is closed 1/2 hour after sunset, except for the legal pursuit of fish or game and for usage of the ramp to launch or load boats." Now we all know why it is written this way and what the intention is. They want to keep out folks who are partying & drinking or causing a nuisance by noise or litter. This sign would allow for them to remove those folks that cause such problems. Yet, this will also not interfere with lawful fishing or boating.
    It is my understanding that you are the one person in Arnold who can get the current rules changed into something that doesn't restrict or discriminate otherwise lawful activity.
    Thank you for listening and I hope you will understand that all we want is to fish with out breaking any laws.

    Thank you,
    (name
    address
    email
    phone)
     
  19. DWB

    DWB Member

    Messages:
    984
    State:
    Missouri
    Ms Boone,

    I am writing to ask that you look into altering the hours of use for the Flamm City public boat access facility (located on the Meramec River) for users engaged in fishing.Currently the park operating hours are prohibiting a core user group from legally using the facility. The hours as posted become an issue for fishermen who frequently use the boat launch-ramp located at this facility to launch their boats onto the river for an evening of river fishing, often returning late in the evening and or in the early morning hours. Many fishermen do so already and despite "technically" being in violation of the law are, for the most part, not cited by local law enforcement. I am asking that you look into altering the usage hours of this facility so that fishermen such as I mention above will be on the proper side of the law.

    You might ask; "There are a lot of boat ramps on the river operated by the Missouri Conservation Department already open 24hrs, why use Flamm City?" The sad truth is that yes, there are many other ramps available for us to use, but they are unsafe at night. More fisherman that I would like to admit have had their vehicles broken into and property stolen while left at area conservation ramps...and even in downtown St. Louis. Some have even been physically assaulted. Flamm City is a safe place with good law enforcement and we have had little to no problems leaving our vehicles at this facility.

    You also might ask; "What is in it for us?" Well, aside from the simple fact that many city residents will be extremely pleased with this change there are financial considerations for the city. The Mississippi River, and its tributaries, in the St. Louis area are a huge draw for recreational and tournament fishermen. The pursuit of one species alone, catfish, draws thousands of visitors to the area yearly for our trophy fishing waters. Cabelas holds a catfishing tournament here with a nationwide draw that alone brings 100's of thousands of dollars to the area. Next year thousands will travel to the St. Louis area to attend the 2nd International Catfish Symposium--many will also stay and fish. You get my point, and this is not to mention the local angler. All of these people want to use the facilities in Flamm City, and to do so legally. And most of them will spend money while in town--be it on gas, bait, food, hotels...etc.

    I am confident that a careful reconsideration by Parks and Recreation will lead to the conclusion that fishermen should be permitted to use this facility beyond existing posted hours. Thank you in advance for your time and consideration of this matter. If you would like clarification on any matters please do not hesitate to write or call.

    Regards,

    XXXXX
    phone....


    AND here is the CC line I used (in includes all of the councilmen I could find addresses for...and a stab at the mayor's address)

    ranannan2@aol.com <ranannan2@aol.com>; mhay1204@charter.net <mhay1204@charter.net>; Bdkd@swbell.net <Bdkd@swbell.net>; jerel@jerelpoor.com <jerel@jerelpoor.com>; blindsley@charter.net <blindsley@charter.net>; jasonconnell.ward4@gmail.com <jasonconnell.ward4@gmail.com>; mayor@arnoldmo.org
     
  20. Manny

    Manny New Member

    Messages:
    248
    State:
    Arnold, Mo
    I am glad to see there are people here willing to put forth effort and support to get this issue resolved, without turning this into a match between cops and fisherman.

    After talking to the Chief I was about to just quit on the situation. It just seemed as though everyone is passing the buck on to the next guy, with no clear law.

    I definetly dont want to ruin it for the boaters that are technically breaking the law but are going un cited. And the bank fisherman are still being ran out. The chief informed me it has been this way for over 20 years and its just that way. He can only inforce the law. I too have a boat and still like to bank fish about 50% of the time.

    I am fortunate to have a boat and I really feel we should not look the other way when a fellow fisherman ( rich or poor ) is getting ran off. While the more fortunate one in the boat gets to use the facility.

    I know from expierience that it does seem that a lot of bank fisherman like to leave there trash everywhere and can seem to being ruining the very place they fish.

    Thanks for support and an interest to get a law in black and white.