Something to think about

Discussion in 'OHIO RIVERS TALK' started by catcrazed, Dec 29, 2007.

  1. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    Alright don’t ask me why I went and did all this research. I guess it is just what happens when you are fascinated by the “catfish” as much as I am. I was interested in finding out What the lifespan was, how many eggs are laid per spawn year, and what the approximate survival rate is on the eggs that are laid. I decided to research the Flathead, Blue cat, and channel cat. All of this information came from test done by biologists on the ohio and Mississippi river between the years of 1991-1997.

    The average flathead catfish lives to be between 22-30 years but is not uncommon to exceed 30 years of age. The average flathead lays approximately 1200 eggs for every pound she weighs and will start to breed at 3 years of age. Of all the eggs she lays only 2% of the hatchlings will make it to maturity which the biologists called 3 years of age. The biologists stated that when a flat head catfish was 3 years old and has her first spawn she would lay approximately 3600 eggs but approx. only 2% would make it to maturity. That number would be about 72 hatchlings that would make it to adulthood. They also stated that a 20 year old fish in there studies would be approximately 37 pounds and would lay approximately 24,000 eggs on her 20th year spawn. The approximate hatchlings that made it to maturity would be 888 hatchlings. Now here is what I thought was really neat. The biologist estimated that from ages 3-20 the female would contribute approx. 432,000 eggs over the 17 years she spawned and the 2% that would survive to maturity would be approximately 8,640 hatchlings that she contributed for me and you to catch! I Just think that is amazing! Now for the bad part. The rough estimate was that at the rate of commercial netting, jugging, trotlining, and hook line and sinker fishing,that less than 20% of the 8,640 would ever make it to see there 20 year birthday in the river which they were hatched in. That brings the number down to 1,728 that make it to 20 years of age in the river system. That means that the next time I catch a nice 25-35 pound flat head im gonna tell her how lucky she is cause 423,360 of her brothers and sisters never made it to maturity and of her 8,640 brothers and sisters that did make it, well 6,912 of them were lost to commercial netters, juggers, trotliners and poor harvesting decisions. Then im gonna slide her right back in the water and hope you get the chance to catch her one day.

    The study done on channel cats and blues were all very similar. Hatchling #s were approximately the same and survival rate was about the same to. So the same amount of survivors is very close to what you read above. Im no biologist by any means but I just thought all the ohio brothers would think that this was something neat to read about. I thought It was really neat. It makes me realize just how special some of the bigger fish are in our river systems. I Guess that is why I am so rough on the commercial netters, cause the fish they are netting and taking out are already just a small fraction of what is left. So when it is all over 1,728 fish is only .4% of 432,000 eggs laid. That is what the end result was of the study done by the biologists. .4% that is amazing to me. As far as im concerned every fish we catch out of the river with any size at all is very very lucky to evan be in the river. I will definitely look at these nice fish In a different way now.

    Im only going by what the biologists studies say. For all I know they could be way off but they are biologists. I know they gotta be smarter than the average (me).
     
  2. catfishrollo

    catfishrollo New Member

    Messages:
    6,894
    State:
    Ohio
    very nice post...reps to you brother!!! maybe this will give more people the insight needed to start releasing them bigger fish....thanks again...rollo
     

  3. tbull

    tbull New Member

    Messages:
    3,318
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Awesome post, bugs me even more now to see big fish being thrown on a stringer....Atleast now there is some good evidence to back it up...Nobody I work with can understand why I go fishing just to catch and release fish, maybe they should read your post..:wink:
     
  4. Scott Daw

    Scott Daw New Member

    Messages:
    2,002
    State:
    Allentown, Pennsylvania
    I wont keep a big fish unless its gut hooked since I use primarily trebles (sometimes circles but it depends on my bait). Thanks for the homework!
     
  5. s_man

    s_man New Member

    Messages:
    3,012
    State:
    south east ohio
    Robin, thanks for looking that up. I see the destruction on a weekly basis. The only people that get onboard with the C&R concept for the most part are new or the ones that actually get out on the water and hunt big fish for sport. Let me tell you they are few and far between, especially if you can only use two rods, and just down the bank some guy has 75 limblines in the water covering a mile of river bank. Thanks again.
     
  6. Kat-addict

    Kat-addict New Member

    Messages:
    114
    State:
    ohio
    Thanks for lookin all that up kid ! I'm sure that took you a while to find all that. I wish everyone was as consious as you are about taking care of your prescious resource !
     
  7. RamRod

    RamRod New Member

    Messages:
    2,047
    State:
    Ohio
    Awesome post, definitely library material!
     
  8. katkiller77

    katkiller77 New Member

    Messages:
    1,549
    State:
    dayton ohio
    very good article on the flatheads i keep eaters anything 6 lbs or less but big ones I throw back they deserve to right to be free they have beaten serious odds to get to that size. good post
     
  9. catfishrollo

    catfishrollo New Member

    Messages:
    6,894
    State:
    Ohio
    the biggest problem i see on the muskingum river, isn't the commercial fishing aspect and the netters. it's the poorly ran fishing tournaments, and the weekend warriors that fish in them. too many nights i see a bunch of rumdumbs show up to the weigh- in, 4 people crammed in a volkswagon rabbit, fishing poles sticking out the windows, with 2 5 gal. buckets in the truck the the heads of these fish shoved in them...great method of crp!! these are the types of people that are smart enough to fish effectively, because thats all they really know..but, don't have a care towards the resource to try to preserve it.. after all its just a fish or two.. sad situation.. now the liners, i know many of local people that are avid trotliners. of the dozen or so, i know of maybe 2 of them that line for the sport and let the big ones go.. the others, knife and kill nearly everything caught.. then these are the ones to complain, moan and groan about the fishing not being as good year to year.. i have had many a conversation with some of these fishermen, who simply refuse to see your view of catch and release, selective harvest... they have it in their minds, because of what their dad or grandpa has told them about there being all kinds of big fish in the river, and you could never keep too many..i think as whole there are alot more people trying to change their ways, but the understandings of earlier generations is still lingering on.. most fishermen that pursue catching good fish each year are cpring their bigger fish.. but the bottom line is there are still way too many lazy people that doesn't want to put in their time and endless hours fishing that would rather run some hooks and go home to watch tv, and are even too lazy to want to fillet 3-5 smaller fish, so they keep the 30lber... im not trying to stir the pot of ethics here, and if you are a liner, and do so in a fassion of preserving our sport.. hats off to you, and goodluck doing so. i don't know what its gonna take to make things better, but i can honestly tell you the fishing in my area has declined greatly in the past years, and will keep doing so until something changes...goodluck to all this year...rollo
     
  10. prostreetS10

    prostreetS10 New Member

    Messages:
    898
    State:
    ohio
    Great post man thanks for sharing the info.
     
  11. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    Im glad to see that i have some supporters out there on what i believe in. I would say in the years to come there will be a lot more come aboard with the cpr. I sure hope so. and i agree with rollo saying that he has seen the fish population go south to. I just watched 1 of my 8 catfishing dvd's that my fiance got me for christmas (man i love that girl). She is regretting it though we havent talked sense christmas morning when i started watching them. Im not sure what it is but when im watching them i just cant seem to hear anything she says. Anyways one of the dvd's i really really liked. It was called "Mississippi river blues". it is shot with professional guide James "big-cat" Patterson. He has special guest Bill Dance on the show and it is a very helpful dvd. Anyone wanting some tips on how to catch blues, this is definetly a good one. In the dvd Bill asks the professional guide "James Patterson if he has seen a change in numbers and size sense 20 years ago and his answer was "yes!!! I have not only seen a dramatic fall in numbers but a lot of the bigger fish being netted or caught that should be put back are being taken and the Number of big fish is going South as well". Any ways I was out fishing with my buddy and I saw something that was right up there with what rollo said. No more to be said just look at the attachment it put on here. If someone is going to go do something like this they should atleast have the decency to get back out and finish the job!!! What do you think! By the way the reason the pic looks the way it does is because when line was dropped the water level was up.
     

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  12. tbull

    tbull New Member

    Messages:
    3,318
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Now wouldnt you love to run into the person that did that????:angry:
     
  13. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    the thing is if people are going to take fish out, these are the size you want to take! Evan maybe a tad bigger. but come on now, Im no softy by any means but talk about a horrible way to die. in that particular creek that was not the only 1 hanging out of water like that either. It just looked like someone hung limb lines and just said the hell with it im not gonna go getum. I tell ya what I really really like some of the episodes that doug stange and the others at "in fisherman" have put out on catfishing. Not only do they teach you how to catch them but they teach people of selective harvest also. There was an episode on just the other day where doug stange was showing people effective ways to catch channel cats in small creeks and it was a really neat episode. he also went on and on about selective harvest and what he was saying i couldnt agree with more. its not like he didnt think any fish should be taken out. That is not what he is preaching!! When he caught a fish between 1.5 - say 3 pounds he was evan keepin some .I see nothing wrong with keeping a fish the size of the one in the picture i posted. Those are good eaters and those fish are very abundant in river systems and creeks. Its the bigger ones that should be put back. I guess we should look on the bright side, that creek i was in could have had 20lbers hanging from the trees.:cool2:
     
  14. fishhook

    fishhook New Member

    Messages:
    658
    State:
    Willow Woo
    Great post with a lot of good information.
     
  15. jwfish

    jwfish New Member

    Messages:
    398
    State:
    columbus ohio
    Thanks for the information guys I have seen the size of flathead where I fish go down alot over 10 years sence all these pay lakes have been poping up all over the state.I think something should be done about the netting and sale of catfish out of the river.
     
  16. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    well the netting is hard for certain people to pass up. one of my buddies bought fish off of a local netter and he charged him the same amount that he charges the pay lakes he sells to which is 2.50 per pound. He bought 6 fish off of the guy and they were various weights but i do know what the bill was. his bill amount was just over 500 dollars. his father bought these fish for him for there new farm pond. It was his b-day gift. it would be easy enough to go out and get 6 fish per night netting i would think. That particular netter is from this area and now has his own paylake. He stocks his own lake and sells fish to. He makes a good livin with that pay lake and when his better half runs the lake he is nettin. It would be nice to not have a boss and just go out and net fish but I will NEVER EVER get that hungry!! me and that particular netter bump heads every time I see him. He never passes up the opportunity to call me a "tree hugger". he saids this because im a cpr fan and don't agree with all the nettin goin on in the river. He just makes the smart ellic remark that while im workin 9-5 he works approximately 2-3 hours a day through the spring summer and fall and makes a hell of a lot more than me. bad part is he's right. and talk about saving money on taxes! Government has no clue how much money hes makin off these fish. My buddy was told to pay cash. With all the paylakes opening around here he is making a small fortune and there is no regulation laws on how many he takes out of this stretch of river. he is another one of those people that thinks there is so many fish in the river he isnt evan putting a dent in the population which right now he may not be. remember the numbers in the study done on hatchlings? those #s were based on 1 Shovelhead catfish and the end result was in her 17 years of spawning approx. only 1,728 fish would make it to 20 years of age. Multiply that by say 100 fish in one year he takes out. In 20 years from now thats when the numbers are missing. 1,728 times 100 fish is approx. 172,800 fish. Thats when the numbers are missing!! thats evan worse, he is robbin fish from me and the future generations. My remark to him is "every fish you take out is just another fish I will never get the chance to catch". Its true! you or I will never get the chance to catch that fish in the river. Im not complainin that i don't catch enough fish because me and my uncle "Kataddict" get our fair share, but future fishing could be a lot better if it was not for these types of hideous acts.
     
  17. catfishrollo

    catfishrollo New Member

    Messages:
    6,894
    State:
    Ohio
    i know exactly where your coming from. i have talked to people until i was blue in the face about this. i have talked to odnr people, you name it.. its like what you are telling them is false information or the want to ignore what you are telling them.. i appreciate them acknowledging the fish, and placing limits here recently, but what good does that do when no one is around to enforce them. these people lining, etc. know this too. they aren't intimidated by the laws.. the odnr was on my section of river this summer after our newly opened public ramp, i took pic.s of them as they passed me ..lol.. they tore a prop up in the shallow water down stream not knowing where to run, and one of them claimed to a buddy of mine back towards the ramp they would never be back... so if this is how they look at our systems and they aren't gonna put forth the effort to enforce laws by being on the water...these reg.s will never go any farther than something you look through in a book each year before you buy your license. i just hope that the yearly shocking attempts and all the other studys start going to crap so maybe they will start scratching their heads sooner or later...rollo
     
  18. s_man

    s_man New Member

    Messages:
    3,012
    State:
    south east ohio
    Robin, as i sit here I just keep getting more angry by the minute. That netter/pond owner is just the guy I'm talking about when it comes to stealing fish out there for everyone. I'm sure if this guy was netting DEER, and stocking his personal fenced in farm for paying clients to shoot, and selling the excess to anyone with the cash to pay his per pound rate, the DNR officers would trample each other to get to be the one that took this guy down. Why all the fuss on Erie this year about perch poaching? Cause more money comes in to the state from ANGLERS and charters than the netters bring in, so someone thought hey since we are getting so many tips the anglers have found out whats going on. We better make it look like we are protecting their recsources or we will start losing money. I say turn the chap in until someone pays attention. Work up the chain of command lol. Thanks officer, how can I reach your boss? Eventually action will be taken. No one likes to know their boss is being informed of their dereliction of duties Right?
     
  19. RetiredToFish

    RetiredToFish New Member

    Messages:
    1,186
    State:
    Newark, Ohio
    catcrazed .... what body of water were you talking about where netter was taking and selling the fish from?
     
  20. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    he nets mainly in the meldahl pool but nets some below meldahl dam as well