Sabiki rig is LEGAL!!!

Discussion in 'MISSOURI RIVERS TALK' started by cheapNdisgusting, Oct 11, 2007.

  1. cheapNdisgusting

    cheapNdisgusting Well-Known Member Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Messages:
    17,924
    State:
    Yonder in Mo.
    Name:
    Russ
    I started a thread a couple weeks ago wordering what a Sabiki rig was. BOC members responded overwhelmingly and I am now the proud owner of several of them, and an abundance of "how too's". Can't wait to try it out.

    However, a question came up about the legality of them. Were there too many hooks? Was it considered a small trotline, ect. All good concerns and view points.

    I contacted the Mo conservation dept. and asked for an interpretation of the code. The following is a cut & paste (with some personal info of mine deleted - this is the internet)

    Remember E-mails are backward (latest response is on top, and first response is at the end)


    yes, this is a legal method although more commonly used to take baitfish in saltwater. Remember to check regulations where fishing as to some area lakes do not allow the taking of bait.
    Gary VanMatre Gary.VanMater@mdc.mo.gov
    Conservation Agent
    St.Louis County

    >>> David Bruns 10/10/2007 10:41 AM >>>
    Russell XXXXXXXX

    I am forwarding your question to a conservation agent, whom will best be able to provide an appropriate answer to your question. You should have a response from him within the next week or so.

    David J. Bruns
    Conservation Education Consultant
    Missouri Department of Conservation
    636/458-2236

    "A sense of wonder and joy should be at the very center of ecological literacy."
    -Richard Louv

    >>> XXXXXXXXDXXXXXXXXX> 10/8/2007 11:39 AM >>>
    There is an item available for catching bait fish called "SABIKI bait catching rig". It is available for sale at Bass-pro and Cabela's, along with other places. It consists of a monofilament line about (4) four feet long with (5) five size 8 wet flies tied on short drop lines (2 1/2") sort of like a minature trotline. It is meant to have a small sinker attached to the end of it, and to be casted into water where baitfish are present. A slow jerking retrieve has been sugested.

    My problem is with the wildlife code and it's interpretation. I know about the 3 rod rule, along with the 33 hook limit on trotlines (50 hooks in the Mississippi ect.).

    Since I would be trying to catch bait for a trotline, can I legally use this type of rig on a casting rod, to catch bait, imediately returning any game fish accidently caught unharmed to the stream.

    I try to follow all wildlife rules and regs. but this one is a stumper for me. Please give me an interpretation of the wildlife code on this problem.

    Thanks ever so much
    Russell XXXXXXXXX

    If anyone is still leary about using them, I sugest you print this thread, put it in a plastic bag with your permit and carry it in your tackle box. So much of the wildlife code is open to interpretation and this should clear it up.

    Happy fishing and thanks to all who responded. This is the way we learn.
     
  2. Whistler

    Whistler Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,084
    State:
    TN
    OK, let's start this over again in a friendly manner this time. I removed the thread that was here so nobody can see it. This time let's keep it just a friendly discussion amongst fishermen, not enemies. I believe this is an important discussion or I would have just left it off the board entirely. Thanks everyone.
     

  3. jtrew

    jtrew New Member

    Messages:
    4,404
    State:
    Little Rock, AR
    What might be better yet would be to PM Russell with your email address and let him forward you a copy of that email. Print that, put it in a ziploc bag or laminate it, and carry it with you.
     
  4. Mr.T

    Mr.T Active Member

    Messages:
    2,554
    State:
    MO
    I don't have the energy or interest in trying to re-post any of the information that I considered useful to this thread, so any latecomers to the conversation are going to be left with nothing more than Zalmaflash's "official" verdict from the MDC.

    And that's unfortunate, because there's a whole lot more to the story that people need to understand, not least of which was today's revelation that the officials in Jefferson City are apparently as unsure of whether a Sabiki is really legal as we are.
     
  5. Vince Copple

    Vince Copple New Member

    Messages:
    765
    State:
    Missouri
    We have various emails sent in concerning this issue to MDC at the Directors levels. It is a matter now of just waiting to see what the response will be. We did make a difference as perhaps MDC needs to write a new regulation to clarify all this. More than likely other States will have to do the same thing.
     
  6. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    So, it appears something positive is coming out of all this.
    Thanks Russell for your original post. You got people to think and then they wrote to the MDC. Now MDC is considering rewording the rules. I think thats great. I imagine the MDC is pleased too. I doubt they want controversy and by your starting all this, I expect next years rules to reflect a change. Thanks again, Russell.

    PS: Thanks to you too Whistler.
     
  7. Dreadnaught

    Dreadnaught New Member

    Messages:
    5,444
    State:
    Henderson,Ky
    I know that they have read this thread before it was cleaned up (they are always watching) and through disscusion comes change. This is good.

    PS. If you want to know how I know: A little bird told me:0a10:!!!!
     
  8. Cuz

    Cuz New Member

    Messages:
    7,241
    State:
    DeSoto, MO
    Lemme guess, it was a little 'pink' bird too. :smile2::wink:
     
  9. Dreadnaught

    Dreadnaught New Member

    Messages:
    5,444
    State:
    Henderson,Ky
    Let's just say the bird is in Missouri, perched in a very high tree!!!
     
  10. GaryF

    GaryF New Member

    Messages:
    3,649
    State:
    O.P., KS
    Just when you thought it was safe to click on this thread, lol. The response I got was that Sabiki rig is not legal. Without further commentary I've attached the email I got back. :cat:

    ---------------
    Mr. Felkner,

    Your email has been forwarded to me and it is my privilege to respond.
    Thanks for your inquiry and I truly appreciate your comment on the
    possible ambiguity in the question asked in the St. Louis area.
    Wildlife Code questions can be simple or complex and often the answer
    is best understood when both parties are in direct communication. Even
    a simple change in a question or the interpretation of the question can
    have an affect on the answer. We try our hardest to provide clear,
    consistent information to Missourians especially on Wildlife Code
    questions.

    We've reviewed your question and visited the web site that you provided
    on the Sabiki Rig. Thanks for providing an interesting question related
    to the Code. It is our conclusion that the particular rig in the web
    site is not legal in Missouri. You were on target when looking at the
    two definitions in the Wildlife Code. Both the pole and line definition
    and the hook definition have a bearing on the issue. The pole and line
    definition states "to which not more than three (3) hooks with bait or
    lures are attached." The hook definition identifies single and
    multi-pronged hooks, etc.

    It is our interpretation that the Sabiki Rig is not a single lure but
    six individual hooks off a line. If the rig contained three or less
    hooks it would be legal to use. Where confusion can creep into an issue
    such as this is when "dropper flies, one lure, how it's described, etc."
    fit into a conversation. Our conclusion is that the rig is not dropper
    flies but just the six hooks tied to one line nor do we consider the rig
    an individual lure. Mr. Felkner I hope this answers your question, if
    not just let me know.

    If anyone wanted to pursue making this rig legal in Missouri they would
    need to contact our Regulations Committee with their recommendation. A
    letter to the Regulations Committee at our Jefferson City address would
    see that a recommendation was considered.

    Thanks,

    Tim Ripperger
    Protection Field Chief

    --------------

    My original question:
    --------------------------

    >>>
    "Gary Felkner" <gfelkner@***.***> 10/24/07 4:25 PM >>>

    Mr Yamnitz


    Can you clarify the legality of using Sabiki rigs in Missouri? Specifically, is it legal to use a rig like this (link to example picture on Daiichi website below) to catch skipjack herring on the Missouri portions of the Missouri and Mississippi Rivers?

    http://www.daiichihooks.com/products/sabiki_rigs.html

    The concerns about it’s legality come from the language in 3 CSR 10-20.805.
    “(45) Pole and line: Fishing methods using tackle normally held in the hand,
    such as a cane pole, casting rod, spinning rod or fly rod, to which not more
    than three (3) hooks with bait or lures are attached.”

    Sabiki rigs typically have 4 or more hooks. Yet there is some language
    that seems to permit this type of rig if it is classified as a single lure.

    (30) Hook: Single- or multiple-pronged hooks and the ordinary artificial lures
    with attached single- or multiple-pronged hooks and dropper flies. A multiple-pronged hook or two (2) or more hooks employed to hold a single bait, shall be considered a single hook in counting the allowable total in
    use.

    An acquaintance was reportedly told by a St Louis County agent that
    the Sabiki rig is a legal method in Missouri, but there also may have been
    some ambiguity in the actual question asked in that exchange. Thank you for
    your help in clarifying this issue.

    Gary Felkner
    Overland Park, KS
    gfelkner@***.***
     
  11. cheapNdisgusting

    cheapNdisgusting Well-Known Member Supporting Member Supporting Member

    Messages:
    17,924
    State:
    Yonder in Mo.
    Name:
    Russ
    Thanks for all of your follow-up work. I know how much I appreciated the answer - one way or the other. I guess the next step is to figure out just how much is involved in changing the rule, or is it worth the effort. Should make for an interesting thread.

    The biggest task that now presents itself is

    HOW DO WE TELL Mrt (this hurts) he is right!!!!!
     
  12. Dreadnaught

    Dreadnaught New Member

    Messages:
    5,444
    State:
    Henderson,Ky
    He got lucky this time, LOL!!! Don't tell him that, his hat doesn't fit now, LMAO!!!
     
  13. jtrew

    jtrew New Member

    Messages:
    4,404
    State:
    Little Rock, AR
    Of course, anyone has the right to petition the Fish & Game to get a regulation changed, but till it's changed, it seems like the easiest thing to do would be to buy sabiki rigs with 6 hooks, cut them in half, and make 2 rigs out of 1. Each would have 3 hooks, which is legal.
     
  14. Vince Copple

    Vince Copple New Member

    Messages:
    765
    State:
    Missouri
    We have the information now. Why dont we have someone from here be a Representative and write up a letter to get this perhaps changed so we can use the rig?
     
  15. WylieCat

    WylieCat Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,175
    State:
    NC
    I would save the trouble and cut three hooks off.....
     
  16. jim

    jim New Member

    Messages:
    2,579
    State:
    Jacksonville NC
    You know I hate to say this but way back at the beginning of this contentious thread I recommended cutting the rig back to 3 hooks.Still works and best yet its LEGAL.:wink::big_smile::smile2:Lessons learned;The opinion of a local law enforcement representative isnt necessarily what the law says.If you look at the legal codes or game and fish laws of any state,they are way to big for any agent to know them all.For those of you that recommended talking to a game warden or specific agent,I would say that would be a starting point,not the end.Nothing beats a thorough reading of all of the handbook,not just the part that supports what you want to hear.Often as T pointed out illumination comes in another chapter.:smile2:Finally critcizing a fellow member because they have read the entire handbook and have attempted to answer the question is counter productive.I dont live there or fish there but when someone posted the Sec State website I went there and read the entire thing and could only come to the same conclusion T did.Calling him uppity,smart alecky etc etc did nothing to change the facts.We can ask important questions,solicit answers and LISTEN to other folks without going for each others throats,if you cant then leave!!!!!!!!:crazy:Now we all have the legal answer and can work towards changing the law if necessary or simply cut 3 hooks off!!!!:smile2::big_smile:I personally am going to spend the winter doldrums modifying some Sabiki rigs for future Missouri fishing trips should I get out there.:big_smile::smile2::wink:
     
  17. Vince Copple

    Vince Copple New Member

    Messages:
    765
    State:
    Missouri
    There has been several articles already written concerning using crappie jigs along with the certain colors of the jigs instead of the sabiki rig. The advantage of the crappie jigs is the weight and size of hooks that can be used especially when you are dealing with the larger skipjacks.
     
  18. spoonfish

    spoonfish New Member

    Messages:
    3,780
    State:
    Warsaw, Mo.
    Thank you for the official report Gary. The westies allready knew that though....:smile2:
     
  19. Arkansascatman777

    Arkansascatman777 New Member

    Messages:
    7,782
    State:
    AR
    I think i posted on this thread something about this being the show me state and using them until a game warden shows you different. That was posted more for comic releif to try to calm some of the members down (Which had very little effect:smile2:). It's good to see that some good did finally come out of this thread with everyone working together with some help from the moderators. That being said it's good to see a group of people that take there catfishing as serious as the Missouri bunch does. Channeled in the right way that is what it takes to get the laws and regulations changed to protect your fisheries for following generations.
     
  20. Mr.T

    Mr.T Active Member

    Messages:
    2,554
    State:
    MO
    I got nothin' to add except thanks, Gary (and Cuz, since you sent in a similar question).