River Conditions

Discussion in 'LOCAL OHIO TALK' started by pendog66, Feb 7, 2006.

  1. pendog66

    pendog66 New Member

    Messages:
    2,121
    State:
    Brookville OH
    I was just wondering with the River being up 5 or 6 feet if its going to affect some of the holes in the rivers. I remember last year after the big flood after all the snow melted last year around christmas it moved some stuff around and some of the holes i fished were filled, or semi filled in. Do you think this will happen again this year???
     
  2. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Nate, while this is a nice rise for the river, I doubt this type of flood will change too much on the riverbed. What causes changes is when say a big tree falls in and the river starts to chew out the bank behind it and then under the log, causing a short term amount of silt to build up behind it, now it may temporarily ( for a year or two) fill in the next hole as all the silt travels to the next deep spot but that is all temporary. If you had lots of good deep holes, the mechanics of the way rivers work will continue to keep these area deep.

    Some good things to look for when map reading is sharp outside bends, usually have a nice sandbar on the inside, better yet if that outside bend has been rip rapped because it will cause a hard spot and the river will be deep, have lots of current and as a bonus will have big rip rapped rock for flatties to hold under.
    Another good thing to do when looking at Google Earth or MS Terra Server is to look for wide spots on the river quickly followed by a narrow spot, narrow spot means its a deeper channel.

    Learn that Rivers "meander" and have a "sinuosity" to them which can allow you to understand where the next logical deep spot is supposed to be. Spend enough time with me and Ill have you "reading" water like nobodys business.
    With this , learn that the river has a riffle, glide, chute, pool, and tailout and understand why they are what they are. Now throw in the hydrogeological part of the equation and uderstand that between every riffle is a pool and deep spot that can be calculated with a math formula,
    As long as your looking up terms, see if you can find "Thalweg", its an important part of this lesson.

    Perhaps you should take "Hydrology" in college, a Certified Hydrologist makes about 90K starting out in this area and in a huge shortage, food for thought...

    Some time Il take you and Mellon out for a day on smaller streams to show you what Im talking about. It would be a lesson youll be amazed at what you "thought" you knew. that was wrong.

    More later , and if we really want to cause some changes, we nbeed one of those 500 year floods we seem to get every year, If I remember the flood last year was considered a 1000 year flood here on the GMR.

    Salmonid
     

  3. chubbahead

    chubbahead Member

    Messages:
    332
    State:
    Ohio
    I don't think the floods are anywhere near as bad as they were last winter. Last winter, my brothers entire neighborhood went under. We haven't come close to that yet.

    Every flood will change the river though. You might find some new trees in your spots. I doubt if the floods moved out any old trees from your current spots though. Its possible that the holes could be a few feet deeper or a few feet shallower, but I doubt anything significant.

    This also all depends on whether or not you are fishing the same river as I am, the GMR. As of now I would say all spots should be fine from last fall.
     
  4. pendog66

    pendog66 New Member

    Messages:
    2,121
    State:
    Brookville OH
    im mainly thinking of the Stillwater because i fish there when i dont have time to get the GMR, its great for nice channels and smallies
     
  5. chubbahead

    chubbahead Member

    Messages:
    332
    State:
    Ohio
    Stillwater should be fine as well. If I'm thinking correctly, that river usually gets back to normal after a flood quicker than the rest around here as well. I think you can usually fish that a few days before being able to fish GMR.
     
  6. dinkbuster1

    dinkbuster1 New Member

    Messages:
    2,272
    State:
    Ohio
    5 or 6 feet isnt going to do anything except maybe wash some trash away lol. i'd say on average we have a rise like this 2-3 times a year, sometimes more. as far as changing holes, from north of dayton down to say middletown holes wont change much no matter how much rain we get thanks to our flood control dams. river will only get so high. now south of hamilton is a different story, those areas really suffered last winter. i cant remember the area but there was one where a few folks had to be rescued by helicopter from their homes. the best hole we had was ruined last winter because of that flood, filled almost completey in with gravel. but from what ive seen that flood created a bunch of new holes also.
     
  7. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Correct Dink, our dams around Dayton limit the action of erosion we typically see in this area, But downstream, more erosion is caused by us "speeding up the water" when we channelize the river, so typically below each area where the river is channelized is where the best deepest hardest bends in the river will be because when you speed up the water, it not only causes erosion downstream but also upstream, ( you might have to think about that one for a while) but again, your pulling the water in the channelized area faster and that cuases lots of problems as well. While I understand the need for dams, they are an ecological nightmare, with channelization a close second. Im trying to not get started here....;)

    Chubba, yes, were all familiar with the GMR and your right, these tiny floods do not change much unless trees get caught somewhere and scour out some news holes, these are usually temporary ands once the tree moves out, the hole will become a sediment trap and will fill in the next tiny flood we have based on the sediment load of the river which is huge.

    Dink, I imagine, that all that sediment got pushed faster and faster through the Dayton, Middleton and Hamilton channelized areas and then hit an area where the banks could not contain the river, it left the channel, caused severe flooding and probably changed the whole ecological hydraulic sytem and needed a place to dump sediment, unfortunately, it sounds like your stretch took the brunt of the problem. My guess is that over time, with mini floods, that area will again slowly recover and youll see the same holes as before occurring over time, may years, maybe 20 years but the river will find a way to fix itself if we ( Man) would quit dicking with them!
    See there I go again...:rolleyes:
    Salmonid
     
  8. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    A quick search of Google came up with these definitions but I could show you better with a dry board and showing drawings.

    Hydrology NOUN: The scientific study of the properties, distribution, and effects of water on the earth's surface, in the soil and underlying rocks, and in the atmosphere. OTHER FORMS: hydrologic (-dr-ljk) , hydrological, hydrologically, hydrologist.

    Meander. The winding of a stream channel

    Sinuosity The ratio of stream length between two points divided by the valley length between the same two points

    Thalweg -- In hydrologic terms, the line of maximum depth in a stream. The thalweg is the part that has the maximum velocity and causes cutbanks and channel migration.

    Sediment Load - total sediment in a sample of water. There are three categories of sediment: suspended load, dissolved load, and bed load
     
  9. dinkbuster1

    dinkbuster1 New Member

    Messages:
    2,272
    State:
    Ohio
    i agree with the channelization, you ever notice how SAD the fishing is in those mile-3mile stretches that dont have any tree's or even tall weeds? geez! carp only territory! where you do find tree's or uncut grass along them you find fish. i understand the levy's, we need them, but why not let trees/tall grass grow up to 20ft from waters edge? less to mow=saved money. the lowhead dams are a problem too but there are about 4 i would like to see remain forever. maybe make some large fish ladders or something. the lowheads on monument and tate station i was told were being considered for removal, they really dont serve any purpose anyways. the monument one from what ive seen in proposed pics will be removed and replaced with a huge boulder rapids for a kayak course. now that would be cool:D
     
  10. flathunter

    flathunter New Member

    Messages:
    5,723
    State:
    Ohio
    I wish the scioto was more like the GMR...When the scioto comes up, it takes it forever to go back down because of all the flood control lakes that empty into it.
     
  11. dinkbuster1

    dinkbuster1 New Member

    Messages:
    2,272
    State:
    Ohio
    but that's no doubt why the scioto is a much better river.
     
  12. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Yeah, that will be totally cool, plus act as a fish ladder to boot. Its what a lot of places are doing to fix what Man has broken.

    The Tate Station dam where we fished, will be there for the long haul because of the new Univ. of Dayton Boat house that is being built there for the Crew teams to row there boats. They are moving them from the Pickle Park downtown where its not safe for them down there.( cant Blame them for that) Im sure they got an agreement from MCD to preserve that dam before they planned to build it there. Supposedly there will be a semi open ramp there to use as well. Its being built right now across from UD arena on the spot where there used to be a pretty good fishing lake, across from teh new ball fields

    Ill see what I can find out about the latest plans for down there, I heard all of that last year.

    Salmonid
     
  13. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Exactly Dink!, with all the dam dams on the GMR, its a wonder there are any migratory fish at all around, dams have kept fish like Drum, Gar, Saugers, skip jacks etc from coming upstream. While it is sometimes good, I would way rather have a free flowing river like the scioto anyday! Hardly any channelization, nor any urban sprawl to ruin it.

    I think me and Dink would gladly trade you;)

    Salmonid
     
  14. pendog66

    pendog66 New Member

    Messages:
    2,121
    State:
    Brookville OH
    thanks for the info Mark and Dink
     
  15. chubbahead

    chubbahead Member

    Messages:
    332
    State:
    Ohio
    Just out of curiosity, is the Scioto similar in width and depth to the GMR. I've never fished Scioto, nor really any rivers outside the Dayton area. Are the flatheads in Scioto coming from the lakes?
     
  16. pendog66

    pendog66 New Member

    Messages:
    2,121
    State:
    Brookville OH
    Yeah i have always wondered about that too
     
  17. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    More appropriately, the question should be "Are the GMR Flatheads coming from lakes?" In the Scioto, beciuase there are no dams from the Ohio all the way up to Columbus, the fish all migraite freely from the Ohio river thus they are "Native" tothe Scioto river, have always been there and with good management and some luck, will alawys be there.

    Now on the Upper GMR, it is my understanding that the higher you go, the less Flatheads are around becuase of all the dams, infact, I think there is like 22 dams from the mouth to the top of Dayton, each one makes stream migration harder and harder for fish to get over during high water. I know for a fact that there are pockets of good flattie waters from Dayton down to the Ohio but not every pool has a decent population. This can be attributed to several factors such as folks who for many years, caught them at ******** and turned them loose in the GMR, some limited migration, some stretches have better habitat then others. I wont go into details but if you fish the stretch from Rt 75 by UD upstream to the Art Museum Dam , all channelized water, youll be hard pressed to find more then a few fish, why, there is no good habitat for them there. This iswhy CnR is so important for the flatheads on the GMR so that the population will onlyg et stronger and it has been getting better over the last 20 years, just ask any long time fisher of the river and they will tell you. In the days before the dams, there are accounts of Flatheads all the way up through Dayton with regularity but after the early 1900's when Dams started, the numbers dwindled and then with the clean water act of the 70's and because of rouge fishermen who moved and transplanted fish,some by hand, some by boats, that population seems to be on the upswing, but with the pressure we see nowadays at the local fishin' holes on the GMR, without some sorts of regulations, I doubt that upswing will last very long. Just my .02
    and everyone has there opinions, if you dont like mine, send me a PM and we can discuss it offline.:)
    Dink, whats your opinion here, Jack,what about your populations do they seem stable or on teh up or downswing?
    Salmonid
     
  18. chubbahead

    chubbahead Member

    Messages:
    332
    State:
    Ohio
    Above the West Carrollton low dam, all the way to the start of the river, I have caught exactly one flathead. I rarely ever target flathead in those sections of the river either. The one I did catch, I was fishing for channel, but it was also a perfect flathead hole. It was only one to two pounds. It really surprised me. It made me think that there could be some more in there.

    I'm going to try and target them North of Dayton a little more this year. I know of some perfect holes, but have not fished them for flathead. I bet I pull out a couple, probably nothing over 20 pounds, but a few none the less. There isn't just one misguided baby flathead swimming around by himself where I fish.
     
  19. dinkbuster1

    dinkbuster1 New Member

    Messages:
    2,272
    State:
    Ohio
    the flats have always been in both rivers, but in the scioto you dont have the dams like we do over here which like Mark said stops migration, but i really dont beleive the flats migrate very much in these sized rivers. those fish were in there long before we started building dams and no doubt their offspring still are. there may have been more way back when but i think its mostly do to habitat than the dams that bigger flats (10lb+) are found mostly south of here. theres not much north of here that i think would hold a flat, water gets much cooler, gets pretty shallow, and isnt fertile enough for them. two of the rivers that flow through dayton have recharging lakes for our water system that really draws a lot from them which we supply water to other communities as well as ours. the one that draws the most is the Mad river well feild on Rohrers island, and across from eastwood lake due to the Mad being so much cleaner. if your familiar with it take a look at the Mad above there and below. in the summer, below there comes to a trickle while above there its still pretty large. i have some old pics of the mad, and seen others from the 20's and it was just as large, if not bigger than the miami in spots. from what older folks told me in the past it truly was a "Mad" river then. this old dude who lived behind me at one time and grew up in the neighborhood told me they used to catch flats in the mad river around Dayton but it barely holds a few channels now. also as stated earlier its channelized too much, nothing to fall into the water to make habitat for other fish, let alone flats. from what ive seen of the scioto its just a tad larger than the miami but it hasnt been channelized very much which is why i think its way better. trees and weeds along the water = bugs, bird droppings, dead animals, etc falling into the water which supports the food chain, plus lots of trees, bushes etc falling in creating habitat. also there isnt nowhere near as many towns along it dumping in runoff from the streets, factories, and sewage plants. as far as fishing above W.C. chubbahead, look at it, it runs like p.v.c.! good channel area but very little if any cover for flats. they are in there but not very big.
     
  20. dinkbuster1

    dinkbuster1 New Member

    Messages:
    2,272
    State:
    Ohio
    the flats have always been in both rivers, but in the scioto you dont have the dams like we do over here which like Mark said stops migration, but i really dont beleive the flats migrate very much in these sized rivers. those fish were in there long before we started building dams and no doubt their offspring still are. there may have been more way back when but i think its mostly do to habitat than the dams that bigger flats (10lb+) are found mostly south of here. theres not much north of here that i think would hold a flat, water gets much cooler, gets pretty shallow, and isnt fertile enough for them. two of the rivers that flow through dayton have recharging lakes for our water system that really draws a lot from them which we supply water to other communities as well as ours. the one that draws the most is the Mad river well feild on Rohrers island, and across from eastwood lake due to the Mad being so much cleaner. if your familiar with it take a look at the Mad above there and below. in the summer, below there comes to a trickle while above there its still pretty large. i have some old pics of the mad, and seen others from the 20's and it was just as large, if not bigger than the miami in spots. from what older folks told me in the past it truly was a "Mad" river then. this old dude who lived behind me at one time and grew up in the neighborhood told me they used to catch flats in the mad river around Dayton but it barely holds a few channels now. also as stated earlier its channelized too much, nothing to fall into the water to make habitat for other fish, let alone flats. from what ive seen of the scioto its just a tad larger than the miami but it hasnt been channelized very much which is why i think its way better. trees and weeds along the water = bugs, bird droppings, dead animals, etc falling into the water which supports the food chain, plus lots of trees, bushes etc falling in creating habitat. also there isnt nowhere near as many towns along it dumping in runoff from the streets, factories, and sewage plants.