Question for Calvin, and anyone else!

Discussion in 'LOCAL KANSAS TALK' started by KansasKatter, Oct 1, 2008.

  1. KansasKatter

    KansasKatter New Member

    Messages:
    807
    State:
    Wichita Kansas
    I also posted this question in the general catfishing thread, but though I would get a better local feel for it here.

    Hey guys, I need some expertise on something I am troubled with. I have a 20 acre lake across the field from my house. The lake is probably 30 feet deep or so, at the deepest point. Last week during the flood we had, the nearby creek flooded over, and was literally running through the entire width of the lake. Not just running into mind you, it was running out the opposite side, just as fast as it was running in. The lake essentially became part of the creek, and it ran like this for several days.

    The creek is very small, and dry the majority of the time, but feeds a slightly larger creek (cowskin for the locals) about half mile down stream from the lake.

    OK, now my troubles, over the past few years I have put several (12 or 15)flatheads in the lake, anywhere from 5 to almost 40lbs, as well as about 20 channel cat from 2 to 18lbs. The lake was already FULL of bullheads and shad and carp, so I know the food source is very strong. Would these fish have stayed in the lake during the flood, or have them more than likely been washed out, or swam out with the current as it was flooding? I sure hope they have stayed in there, but I am fearing the worst.

    I guess if I hear of anyone catching a 40+lb flathead out of the Cowskin creek, I will have my answer! :sad2:
     
  2. arkrivercatman

    arkrivercatman New Member

    Messages:
    4,472
    State:
    KS
    Lesson Learned?:smile2:
    I would say they are in the creek. Back where they belong. Maybe they will make it back to the river?
    Stocking it with small fish is one thing but why would you take big fish out of a river and put them in a pond?
    Sorry, thats just my opinion.
     

  3. KansasKatter

    KansasKatter New Member

    Messages:
    807
    State:
    Wichita Kansas
    Why wouldn't you? Some of them came out of the lake anyway, (Eldorado, and Kaw, and the channel from Cheney) and the ones that came out of the river more than likely came from the lake in the first place.

    Just curious though, and I ask with all sincerity, what would be wrong with taking fish from the river and putting them in a lake? I really don't see anything wrong with it, but if there is, I will stop. Every good lake or pond I know of is or has been stocked this way in the past.
     
  4. ateamfisherman

    ateamfisherman New Member

    Messages:
    297
    State:
    Texas
    I think that most of them probably stayed here when the ponds flood they stay where they are. They are just like any thing they like home even if it is not a river. thanks sam davis
     
  5. arkrivercatman

    arkrivercatman New Member

    Messages:
    4,472
    State:
    KS
    This is just my opinion. You are takin fish from a public lake, or river, and putting them in a PRIVATE lake. That means no one has a chance to catch them but YOU. Plus, whether they were caught in a lake or a river, they are a river fish. They go up river to spawn and reproduce. Once in a pond I doubt they would reproduce again. You will just have a big fish in there that will most likely get smaller. You would think that they will just eat everything and get bigger but most likely they wont. They arent a pond fish.
    Like I said, small fish is one thing. But the big ones are a different story. I know you have taken them out of the Walnut and Kaw. I fish both of those places. I could have very well caught them same fish. But not now.
    Personally, Id rather hear of someone eatin a big fish than to take it somewhere else for their own personal gain.
    Its your choice, I am just giving my opinion.
     
  6. delbert bumbleshoot

    delbert bumbleshoot New Member

    Messages:
    677
    State:
    Overland Park,Kansas
    Don't know how to post a link but I believe KDWP would frown on that from what I read.
     
  7. Katatonik

    Katatonik New Member

    Messages:
    1,262
    State:
    Ogden, Kansas,
    Not to worry, most of the larger fish hung close to the bottom of the pond
    and let the temporary current wash over them like their instincts told
    them to do. That's how they act in rivers and this is where their genetic
    behavior was made. Think of the pond as an old oxbow reintegrated into
    the river system during the spring flooding. Essentially, the same bunch
    of fish are in your pond now. Some of the bullheads and sunfish may be
    in another part of the system of streams and gullies alive or dead as their
    individual luck dictated. What will help out your pond is putting stuff in
    the pond that your favored species can use as spawning cover. Old tires
    with a small amount of concrete slip cast inside as ballast can be laid
    flat on a shallow level bottom and cut red cedars arranged in a broken
    oblong ring around the group. This will give your fourty pounder the idea
    to make a bunch of little flatheads to help balance the bullhead bulge in
    your mini ecosystem. Empty plastic barrels laid on their sides work too.
     
  8. KansasKatter

    KansasKatter New Member

    Messages:
    807
    State:
    Wichita Kansas
    I can respect that, and to be honest, had never really thought of it that way. I will certainly keep that in mind in the future.

    I will add this however, all but one of the fish caught on the Walnut were caught on private land on the Walnut. I know that does not mean they won't end up in another part of the river, but odds are they wouldn't, as the same property owner owns about 15 miles of that stretch of river, both sides.

    I do see your point though, and will keep it in mind.
     
  9. arkrivercatman

    arkrivercatman New Member

    Messages:
    4,472
    State:
    KS
    My opinion is just that. It has no reflection on you Jeff. I can see wantin to stock your pond with some quality fish. Truth is, all of the fish we catch, be it on the Walnut or Arkansas, came from Kaw lake. They winter there and head upstream with the flood waters. They get blocked at El Dorado and Lincoln St here in Wichita. I am sure there are plenty to replace the ones you took. Access is horrible for both rivers and I still seem to catch them in the few places where I can get. I think we all would be shocked as to how many cats there really are. Please just use selective harvest and not keep ALL of the big fish that you catch. A few a year wouldnt hurt things much but taking out all you catch could.
    Please do not take this as a bashing. It is not meant that way.

    When are we gonna hook up and fish Jeff? We already fish the same waters. Time is runnin out on the flatheads. Lets go catch some!!
     
  10. catfishcentral

    catfishcentral New Member

    Messages:
    1,497
    State:
    OK
    I think it's really a toss up whether or not you lost any fish. You could very well have gained some fish also. Nothing says that fish that are in that creek a half mile downsteam just didn't head up during the current flow and find new residence in your pond. Fish are always looking for food and some may have very well found your pond. Catch some of the bullheads out of the pond and set up some bank poles to get a feel for the current population.
     
  11. Johnboy1975

    Johnboy1975 New Member

    Messages:
    139
    State:
    Muscotah Kansas
    Take this for what its worth cause by no means am I a expert but growing up in Rulo Nebraska along the Missouri River I have seen my fair share of flooding. From my experience "with river fish" when its flooding and a faster than normal current is running fish find the slack water. Meaning that they will get out of the main channel and current and find the areas that arent moving. They usually stay there until the water starts dropping then it seems that the catfish are the first ones to get back to the river. We had a flood gate on the bottom where my uncles farmed that was called a "flap" gate. It was suppose to close when the river came out and protect the other side of the levee. Well that thing didnt close and somehow a cattle panel was placed blocking fish from returning to the river. So as the water went down on the inside of the levee the fishing hole got smaller and smaller until they were jumping on each other....then we jumped on them.. For every 40 carp we might of caught one cat. Needless to say most of all the family and friends freezers were full after each and every flood. It always stayed that way though we hardly ever caught any catfish...Old timers said its because they leave the second the river starts to go down.
     
  12. rush_60

    rush_60 New Member

    Messages:
    1,719
    State:
    Troy, KS
    I never disagree with you Kyle, but here I think we have a differing of opinion. Isn't it better for him to take them home and put them in his pond where they dont have the threat of trot lines, bank lines, illegal noodlers? 20 Acres is big enough to be self sustained. You may have one or two that would never spawn again but I bet the majority spawned again. It sounds like the food source is there and I bet they gained some weight. In short I'm not against this because every pond at some point gives the fish a chance to get out, either over the dam or out the tube. Some of them leave. I've caught 4-6 pound catfish in beaver dams in a little creek below a pond a month after a big rain. Jeff, even if the big ones left you still have the young ones (assuming they spawned). Just my opinion.
     
  13. Catfish Fever

    Catfish Fever New Member

    Messages:
    4,548
    State:
    Wside, Mil
    Casey, I have to agree with Kyle. First, I don't consider trotlining and banklines as sport fishing, but they are leagal (if used legally) therefore, they're not a threat, but a means that some folks prefer to catch their fish. I won't get into the noodling method, not familiar with laws etc.
    As to the main subject, removing Catfish from the public waterways, and putting them in a private pond just doesn't set right with me either. First off, depending on how many he's put in there, he might be WAY over his "Creel Limit", legal wise, that wouldn't be any different than taking them home and putting an excessive limit in a stock tank, taking into account they're not being that restricted. They are being kept.
    Like Kyle said, no bashing intended here, just wanted to state my opinion Jeff.
     
  14. arkrivercatman

    arkrivercatman New Member

    Messages:
    4,472
    State:
    KS
    My point is that it is taking fish from PUBLIC waters and putting them into PRIVATE is not right. Even if they are taken by "alternative" methods they will be used to feed someone. They will suffer ONCE.
    In my opinion the flatheads will not spawn again. The channels probably will. That is one reason why the KDWP doesnt stock as many flatheads. It is a much bigger task and requires more work. They are a totally different fish. They may even kill the small channels in the pond just because. It MAY be detrimental to the other species in the pond. You never know. But if they were taken from waters where you all fish you would be a little disappointed.
     
  15. smhmc6

    smhmc6 Member

    Messages:
    744
    State:
    Kansas
    I'm not sure if I have a real strong opinion on this either way.... I'm just curious why someone would want to transfer them to a pond? You already have access to private property on the river to catch them, which is really nice and I'm jealous:roll_eyes:. What advantage is there to take them from private access to private access? Is it just easier to catch them in a pond or something... less water, better chance of catching them again? Ponds might be an easier setting to take your kids to fish maybe. Is it to be able to catch them all year around? What I mean is that I'm sure that during the winter, the fish travel back down stream to deep holes and they won't be in your same fishing hole during the winter months. In a pond you wouldn't have to follow them miles downstream to catch them I guess. Just curious. I'm somewhat new to catfishing... done it for probably only 4-5 years (alot of you have done it since you were able to carry a fishing pole, dad's took you and all that). I am even newer to chasing bigger fish, mainly flatheads, just started learning about that this year. So, with that in mind I'm not asking in a sarcastic way I am genuinely curious.
     
  16. Katatonik

    Katatonik New Member

    Messages:
    1,262
    State:
    Ogden, Kansas,
    The answer, of course, is that you get different or even better fish in your pond without paying KDWP to bring you fingerlings or even larger fish from their environment controlled fish farms that have no diseases or parasites that could be detected or controlled for and no genetic defects that can be identified or eliminated. In other words, no support of an organization you have no direct control of that feels it must control your whims to protect you from yourself and from the occasional two headed catfish or glow in the dark pondweeds or mutant maneating clams.

    You like how the fish looks and would like this one in your pond. Might be nice to have a bunch of them that looks this good. I'll catch a few more and put them in too. Keeps the guy down the road from eating them before they can spawn in my pond. Why that sounds a lot simpler than having biologists swarming over my property then telling me that I've got to let folks in here to fish that I don't know or care to ever meet. What's a zebra mussel look like anyway? What's that virus that scrambles a fish's nervous system and makes them swim in a circle? Have they found that pandemic in Cowskin Creek or its' tributaries yet? Did ducks bring in this disease on their little webbed feet? Maybe I should shoot them ducks...

    Ignorance is bliss, you say? Not really. But you will pay its price on this path, fellah!! On the other hand, you did it your way on your own land. And the lead in lake came from your own shotgun over the years.
     
  17. rush_60

    rush_60 New Member

    Messages:
    1,719
    State:
    Troy, KS
    Let me clarify my earlier post. I am not in favor of taking TROPHY fish and putting them in another body of water. Let me ask a question though, how does everybody feel about the fish that are in the bass pro or cabelas tank?
     
  18. Katatonik

    Katatonik New Member

    Messages:
    1,262
    State:
    Ogden, Kansas,
    I just hope that when I'm in that retirement home which looms in my future
    that my friends will stop by and confuse me with their nephews name list
    and pictures of children that look nothing like me or my relatives. And that
    I'm easy to tell apart from the other old coots finning around that plate
    glass Shangra-La....And that the fish sticks taste like they are made from
    fish not Solent Green...maybe I just think too much for my own good...
     
  19. arkrivercatman

    arkrivercatman New Member

    Messages:
    4,472
    State:
    KS
    Well the ones he stocked were mostly trophy fish. 20+ pound flatheads and an 18 pound channel. Thats some pretty nice fish. A bunch of fiddler channels, that may be another story. The fact is that most if not all of the nice fish he has caught has gone into the pond.
    As far as the tanks at Cabelas and BP, they serve as an educational tool. They were most likely taken from waters that have a good population of Bigger fish. Would I rather those fish still be swimmin in the wild, hell yeah. But they pay money for those fish, I believe, and they are managed my biologist. They will never be caught again and they are for the PUBLIC to view. Not for One guy's pond.
     
  20. Johnboy1975

    Johnboy1975 New Member

    Messages:
    139
    State:
    Muscotah Kansas
    I dont have a problem with someone taking a fish out of the river and putting it in a pond. The way I see it once they have caught it that it is theirs to with with as they choose. Now I will say that as a fellow fisherman I would like to see them put the bigger ones back in but I dont hold it against them if they dont. To me its just like they took it home and ate it. Im in the process of stocking my little pond at home with bluegill right now. I go to an area farmers pond and get some use some for bait the extra go into my pond.