property laws

Discussion in 'OHIO RIVERS TALK' started by jarhead, Feb 19, 2009.

  1. jarhead

    jarhead New Member

    Messages:
    24
    State:
    ohio
    few months back i went to the river was going to jump in and start walking was fishing for smallmouth its a good way to catch fish and scout for promising cat spots and let me tell ya there is some really deep holes in the middle of the auglaze but any way i have done this for years i get out of my truck start walking to the river and some guy comes running out side asking me what the h ll im doin i explain and he says no ur not and then the game warden pulls up and says the state owns the water and the land owner the ground under it so u can not wade it set anchor put out decoys that have wieghts on them or any thing that touches the ground without permission now im all about permission but this is a little extreme anyway done some looking and found out that this is a common law that was brought over from england way back and has never been changed and was wondering what u guys thought about it and whats the chances of getting it changed
     
  2. kitsinni

    kitsinni New Member

    Messages:
    1,573
    State:
    Ohio
    I wouldn't count on it getting changed. Laws follow the money and the property owners are paying more in tax.
     

  3. CatFuStyle

    CatFuStyle New Member

    Messages:
    211
    State:
    Xenia, Ohio
    i do civil engineering and surveyoring and here is how its layed out.

    1. Meandering Property Lines - these property lines follow the bank of a river, creek or stream, these property lines are ever changing as the bank changes with flooding. in this type of property line description property lines normally do extend into the river, creek or stream but follow the path of the bank that is ever changing, they still own the rights to the ground beneath the water.

    2. Normal Property Lines - this is your basic property line description, weather is a neighborhood or out in the country, in your case the property owners land probally extends into or across the river, creek or stream and that owner only has a say on the land he owns, if they wanna be real turds they can file trespassing charges and see it to the fullest extent and if there is trash around if they wanted to be really big turds they could claim that that trash was from you or persons with you.

    the reason this type of land division is setup is so that there is no fighting, arguing or discrepencies on who owns what of what, if you have an area that noone owns someone will come up and say they own it and so forth, this way everything is accounted for, here in dayton we have the Miami Conservancy District, i do alot of survey and engineering work for them and there are many projects coming up on the GMR that they are planning, i also know where they have land that they own that i can freely traverse the rivers on the bank or in the water, check and see if there is something in that area, the local DNR should know.
     
  4. katkiller77

    katkiller77 New Member

    Messages:
    1,549
    State:
    dayton ohio
    one thing on the great miami always check property lines i try to stay close to miami conservancy areas as possible unless you are close to a well field you can fish all night with no problem. check with your local county surveyor office to see who owns property. safe bet rick
     
  5. AwShucks

    AwShucks New Member

    Messages:
    4,532
    State:
    Guthrie, Oklaho
    First off, I don't own property except for the 1/2 acre the house sets on, and it is no where near a river. But I do uphold the rights of the particular land owner. The first thing, if you were to reasonably approach one and ask for permission, probably 70% will give you permission, whereas the rest won't. I found out fishing a pond the owner let me fish they appreciate things like you being considerate of them and their property. I always use gates and never crawl a fence...after all, who has to repair the fence? When I smoked, every butt went into my pockets and were not left there for the cattle to ingest. Same for fishing line... if it came off my reel, it went back into my pocket, to include trash left by other "sportsmen. For those who won't give you permission, heck, there probably wasn't anything there anyhow. About the only thing the landowner could find to indicate were my tracks in the cow paddies I didn't avoid. LOL
     
  6. Hoopie

    Hoopie New Member

    Messages:
    818
    State:
    Ohio
    Welcome to the site jarhead. I think you will have a hard time changing that law,but if you follow it I'm sure you will come accross some nice people that will let access the river from thier propety.
     
  7. BobbyLee

    BobbyLee New Member

    Messages:
    858
    State:
    Zanesville, Ohio
    Welcome to the BOC Josh.

    While we're speaking on this. Has anyone ever had problems anchoring on the Muskingum River?
     
  8. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    This happened to me recently to. I was wading a small creek catchin small channels on leaches floating under a float and some guy flies off his rocker tellin me im on his property. I don't understand that law what so ever. If your wading through state owned water I don't give a flyin rats ass if the bottom belongs to the land owner or not. State trumps landowner any other time. Am I right or wrong??? To be honest, I thought he was wrong so I got ahold of the game warden. Come to find out, you can only float, not touch the bottom. I didnt get into this creek via his property. I don't agree with this law. It is a shame we pay fishing license fees and can't access state waters. Total bs. I was tellin a local farmer the story and he smarted off "well what if you were a land owner, you would have an issue with it then wouldnt you"? Hell, no I wouldnt, Im about as easy going as anyone you will meet and if it werent for a$$holes like you had to deal with everybody would be happier.
     
  9. jarhead

    jarhead New Member

    Messages:
    24
    State:
    ohio
    catcrazed thats exactly what im sayin and everyone that keeps sayin get permission well i do every time i go hunting or fishing but what i dont think everyone is understanding is if ur wading say a 5 mile stretch then u have to go get permission from 10 different people everyone owns to the half way point in the river and if the owner owns the ground under it then shouldnt the state be paying him for use of his land do think that if the river flooded out say 50 acres of field and u floated a boat on it and shot some duck u would be in the right or wrong if u didnt have permission i would almost bet u would get a ticket even though u were technically in the right i dont know i guess im just pissed about this stupid law because i dont think its like this in every state
     
  10. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Dont get me wrong, I agree we need more public access but as a small landowner, I have to disagree with some of the above comments.
    If I own the land to the center of the stream then I am paying taxes for that and it is truly "My land' now the states quandry happens because the state own the Water because it is transient, meaning it didnt start on the property ( Like a spring) now, the state owns the wildlife as well because they are also transient, move across property lines weather they be fish or game. Now technically in OHIO you can float across property line and you can wade down stream legally because you are using the "waterway" as a highway, that is legal in Ohio and allows you to portage or walk on the banks to go around obstructions with the minimal amount of distance required and that is all ok. Now when you change your means from using the resource from a "highway" to angling or more specific, "Hunting" game or fish, the application and the rules change.

    Now, just like in Ohio a deer is owned by the state,(because it is transient) but the state allows a landowner to allow who has permission to hunt for them on the private property. This is the exact same way fishing works, the state allows the landowner to decide who has permission to "hunt" fish on tthat private property. Just remember, hunting game is fish or game and the laws the exact same for both species.

    There is even a case of trespassing on Ohio's books from an angler trying to land a large fish from shore and crossed property lines with the fish still hooked to get to a better place to land the fish, just like chasing a wounded deer across property lines, a big no-no.

    As far as changing the laws, my Trout Unlimited group as well as the Ohio Smallmouth alliance has both tried to get the attorney general to make a much more clear definition of what the state deems "Navigable" because that is where the grey area comes in. In the meantime, the state of Ohio is VERY clear in stating that if the waterway is deemed "Navigable" by law, then it is recreationable by law to include fishing, wading, boating,anchoring, hunting etc. Ohio law presently states only 4 waterways in Ohio as being "navigable" a lower section of the muskingum, ( barge traffic) the lowest 4-5 miles of the Little Miami river ( Ohio Vs. Newport Concrete, 1992 I think) and 2 different sections of Lake Erie tribs where there is commercial traffic. Remember, Ohio doesnt technically own the Ohio River so that is never mentioned.

    Anyways, to get the Attorney general to make a decision, it takes one of the states governing bodies to make the request, ( that being ODNR, ODoW,ODo Watercraft etc. ) public can not make the request, and we have spoken with them many times and all agree that they need the land owners to be there friends when it comes to political lobbying and have stated none of them would touch that request with a 10 ft pole. ( and I dont blame them)

    In the meantime, we are working with some senators on trying to pass a resolution to make the water access laws more clear. This is a huge ball and it moves very slowly.....but be it known a large group of anglers is way ahead of you trying to make this a lot more clear.

    Until then, stay out of sight and continue to do what you feel is right and whn asked to leave, please do so. Its the law....and its that simple

    Salmonid
     
  11. jarhead

    jarhead New Member

    Messages:
    24
    State:
    ohio
    mark do u know a link for ohios meaning of navigable and thanks for your input
     
  12. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

    Messages:
    9,407
    State:
    Four Oaks, NC
    The best explanation of why these laws exist on non navigable water is that rivers and streams are constantly changing course.
    If my property line extends to the bank of the river and 10 foot section of bank collapses I've lost 10 feet of property. This would mean resurveying and changing a deed to reflect that. It would also change the taxation. This would be ocurring constantly. If a single tree on my river bank fell into the river I've potentially lost ground.

    By running the lines to the middle of the run of the river it never changes.
    I may lose that 10 feet of dry ground but next year with the springs rains I may gain 30 feet of dry ground when the river subsides.
    Running the property lines to the middle of the run of the river is the only sensible thing to do on non navigable water.

    Determining what is navigable and non navigable is different everwhere. In NC it's defined as if a seagoing vessel can sail its course it's navigable.

    Some of the northern states where the timber industry was big at one time it's defined by a certain diameter log being able to float it.

    There is another state that will possibally change from a non-navigable designation to a navigable designation if you can prove the river was used for commerce at some point. They'll accept photos, tax records etc.

    Ripary laws are some of the oldest laws in this country that are still standing laws. Something we should be proud of instead of detest.
    The foundation to our country was built on private porperty ownership rights not public property.

    You are fortunate you don't live in England. Their laws are alot different.
    Atleast you can paddle your non navigable waters. They can't necessarily without joining a club or paying fees just to drop a canoe in the water and even with that you have boundaries to that jurisdiction whether club or municipal.

    I primarily fish non navigable water and dont have problems. I'm not going to traipse through someone's yard or fish in their backyard out of respect. The river is too long for all that. I dont park at a bridge for access if there is a house right there at the bridge.
    I try to put myself in their place. I know I wouldnt like vehicles parked on the shoulder of the road everytime I looked out the window. Nor would I like to look out my window and see a canoe anchored in my backyard all of the time.
    Think of your own backyard. Would you like a stranger standing in it? Not me.

    As a landowner myself I know at some point you have to be an ass or accept being run all over. Some people have no respect and generally it's those people that will cause access to be locked down for all.
    You let one do it and it seems to morph into the entire population doing it before long and it becomes a take situation.
    People see one doing it and they think it's alright if they do it too.
     
  13. CatFuStyle

    CatFuStyle New Member

    Messages:
    211
    State:
    Xenia, Ohio
    i see both sides and i see it more than most do, i dont know how many calls i get, can i get a qoute to come out and survey my property to mark the property lines so i can stop people from coming onto my property, one misconception ive read is property lines extend into the middle of a river creek or stream, this is not the case, in most cases, one property only owns up to the edge of bank, and the adjacent owner owns all the way across. sometimes the property lines will meet in the middle of the river, stream, etc... but that could have been 50 years ago when the river, stream or creek was in that exact location, another thing to remember as well, most of your farm land out in the country is based off of deeds and descriptions more than 30 yrs old, there is no need to resurvey and write new legal descriptions for these property's unless they are being sold, lot split, replated, or subdivided so alot of farm land that has rivers running through them probally still have the original deed or one that is 30yrs+ old which in most cases where a river is present, doesnt fit the deed anymore and needs to be updated. they will either loose physical land and gain more water area or they will gain land and loose water area, but that just means the other owner adjacent will gain or loose one as well.

    jarhead, navigable has alot and i do mean alot of variations in meaning, as far as the GMR naviagble streams, creeks, river and so forth its any body of water that flows into the GMR that the Army Corps of Engineers says it is, i am working on a 400 lot subdivision design that has a stream running though it no larger than a 1 foot across max in some spots with no name and it was deemed naviagble, so really if the Corp wants to call it that they will. but for the general use term, its any river, creek, stream that is naviagble, this usually means by vessel of some sort. that was the explaination straight from the Army Corps of Engineers that we was told...

    on a similiar note, the cities and counties are starting to limit right-of-way access by fencing off all there R/W along bridges and overpasses along rivers to limit the acces.
     
  14. kitsinni

    kitsinni New Member

    Messages:
    1,573
    State:
    Ohio
    Say you are in the Great Miami River and you see some logs sticking out of the middle of the river. Can you legally tie up to those logs as long as you don't have your feet or anchor touching the bottom?
     
  15. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    I don't give a flying horse shoe about someones property being under the water. What are they doing with the land under the water anyways. If someone is wading in STATE water it should be legal. I pay for a fishing license to fish state waterways. Right or wrong???? I know what some are thinkin, you have a boat, float it. Cant!!! they all have riffle areas all the way to the river. I live in a very rural area and have pissy landowner living all around me. If I were a landowner, I wouldnt say a word if someone were wading a large creek that was connected with my property. i know me sayin this on the boc isnt gonna get anything done but the law is BS!! The land owners can disagree all they want. its mine its mine its mine! give me a break. Its not that I don't want to respect someones property. Thats not what Im saying. This situation on the other hand is different
     
  16. catcrazed

    catcrazed New Member

    Messages:
    575
    State:
    ohio
    My back yard doesnt have state water running through it, and if it did I would understand that someone is fishing state water and they wouldnt be run off. Maybe if they were creating a problem. Someone wading down a stream fishin Should be the least of anyones problems. That right there is why the law is bs!! if you are standing in state water you should be allowed to fish with a state fishing license. I know you say put yourself in there shoes. Okay Im there, if the worse thing that happens to you in a day is you see a fisherman wading down state waters then you are pretty lucky! Im not tryin to argue but In my spare time I love to fish and the creeks around me are great for havin a quick couple of hours of fun. Even if you would get permision to fish from one landowner the next would tell ya to get lost. fishin just wouldnt be fun havin to drive from property to property. Ill give you an example of why I get so mad about land owners givin people crap about that. The day I was told to leave I was approaching a bridge which was owned by the state. I got to the bridge and spray painted in red spray paint on the bridge pillar it saids "No fishing, no minnows, no excuses". About that time here come the land owner just as pissed off as a hornet. Thought the ole fart was gonna have a heart attack tryin to get down there to yell at me. At the time I had no clue you couldnt wade STATE WATER!!!!! What kills me is this. The law is quick to keep me from wading down the state owned creek but they dont say crap to him about spraypainting that crap on the bridge pillar. I called on the old fart because he was such an ass and nothing was done. He oughta have to clean that pillar
     
  17. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Catcrazed, to answer the question about what are they doing with land under the water, the answer is that they are paying taxes on that land so most landowners see it just as there pasture or farmland.
    Not to be a jerk about this but if you were a landowner with a stream in your back yard, I am positive you would change your mindset regarding this issue. So with daily trash pickups by you, fence repairs by you, cattle getting out because of fence being cut and having a neighbor sue you blind because he hit your black cow at night, you finding the nice trees you planted have been cut down and used for firewood, you enjoying a nice backyard barbque with a handful of drunks shouting obcenities while your family is trying to enjoy the outdoors and lastly, this is one my buddy deals with all the time, having folks walk through your backyard after dark to access there favorite spot. He can not have his little kids outside playing ( in his back yard) because he is afraid of the weirdos that continually frequent the space behind his house ( yes, its posted but the folks just keep coming) Hmm, then there is the needles and spray cans from huffers, condom wrappers, diapers, dead fish left on the bank and then the broken bottles everywhere and I could just go on and on but I think you get the idea.

    Not trying to be difficult but you are right, when you pay for a license, you are paying for state "public" access. In Ohio as in most states, water access is indeed private, if you dont like it, move to Michigan, Wisconsin or Montana. Until then, you will have to deal with it like the rest of us do.

    Salmonid
     
  18. kitsinni

    kitsinni New Member

    Messages:
    1,573
    State:
    Ohio
    While I understand your concerns, none of those are actual factors of people wading in public waters or anchoring a boat. Those to me sound like side affects of someone using your land to bank fish and acting like a selfish fool. I think what we are really talking about is walking through the water over someone's land while you are fishing the water, not posting up in someone's yard.

    I think a fair compromise would be that people can walk in public waters as long as they are not staying in one place and extended amount of time and fishing your land. Maybe you can stop and tie up a new lure or grab your fish, but you have to be moving down the stream in general. I think it is fair to "share" the land if someone is just walking through the water and never gets out of the water. Especially if they don't all just stand right in front of your land in the water all day.

    Don't get me wrong I know that all laws will favor the people paying the most tax, I'm just not sure that is the "right" way. Laws just don't have to be all one way or all the other.
     
  19. Salmonid

    Salmonid New Member

    Messages:
    1,833
    State:
    SW Ohio
    Kitsini, you make a good point but let me add that most landowners see the bottom of the stream as just more farmland, that was kind of the point i was making. It is an extension of there property and more then likely, they paid a higher amount of money for riverfront property and we all know that times are a changin ( not for the better) with liability concerns, everyone wanting there own privacy and then there is the wealth envy that many folks have, it just amazes me.

    I also was trying to point out that if you are not a landowner in these situations, it is hard to understand why farmers have this keep out mentality.

    Yup, in a perfect world, if folks would park at a public access, and wade down stream to the next bridge and walk by road back to there car, I suppose most folks would be fine with that but we all know that is not how it works:wink:

    Dont get me wrong, I am out there trying to be part of the solution, not the problem. I am merely stating the facts......

    Salmonid
     
  20. AwShucks

    AwShucks New Member

    Messages:
    4,532
    State:
    Guthrie, Oklaho
    It seems like this same subject has been discussed several times over the past few years. I once again have to post about the FEDERAL judge who ruled the people fishing in the Mississippi River was trespassing. Some Parrish sherrif in Louisiana had been giving out tickets, and when it finally got to a federal district court, the judge ruled in favor of the landowners. Last I heard it was waiting for a hearing in an appeals court. Here is a link...

    http://www.louisianasportsman.com/details.php?id=213