[loanwizard]

It seems a lot of people hate Pay Lakes. More correctly, they seem to intensely dislike fish being netted, legally or illegaly and sold legally or illegaly to these lakes. I have heard a lot about Natural resource depletion and mortality rates, as well as the inhumane treatment of these animals. Does anyone have any hard data supporting the claims of these mortality rates? Have there been studies on catfish to prove or disprove the depletion theory? I know that there have been millions spent studying bass and walleye and the resulting management including slot limits and creel limits have been impressive. Look at Lake Eries Walleye management. So far I have not found much.

I have found where a Mo fish farm stocks feeder size channels at a rate of 3000 to 5000 fish per surface acre. That seems like a lot to me.

Currently catfish only occupy one pond on the farm, stocked at a density of 3000-3500 fish per surface acre. These fish typically enjoy a 95% survival rate, much of which can be attributed to research on these fish that has been taking place since the 1960s, and their nutritional requirements are understood better. Paula’s main market for catfish is pay-lake farms, where people go to catch live fish and pay for the weight of fish that they catch and keep. Farms further south produce catfish for commercial processing plants, and are able to treat their fish more roughly at harvest time; however, as these fish need to stay live, they need to be treated more gently.

Day Eleven, Midwest Tour

I don't have a dog in the hunt so to speak. It has been told to me many times that if I lived in the area and witnessed first hand the alleged devastion that the commercial netters that I would be as passionate as others on here. Perhaps that is true, perhaps not. What I am looking for is usable information for both sides to mount their fight. Opinons, suppositions, hypotheses, etc... mean very little to the powers that be. Evidence is what you need. Anyhow, I am just trying to start a civilized discussion that gives factual evidence that can be used to encourage legal changes.

 

[Steph]

If you go to the Ohio River section, the topic Disgusting by Tbull has a lot of information in the 26 pages lol, and the other "pay lake" thread too.


I don't know what all the hoo ha about paylakes are recently.. either you like them and fish them, or you don't care.

 

[catfishjohn]

No actual evidence other than what an Ohio pay pond owner told me years ago.
He told me that if the Blues & Flats lived 6 months to 1 year they were doing real good and most didn't make it that long. This is a fairly decent sized 'lake', a few acres. Its well aerated and pretty clean looking. He said the main reason was overcrowding & the stress of being caught numerous times. He also said thats why they were constantly stocking big cats, the mortality rate was very high and without tons of Trophy Catfish his business wouldn't be near as good. He drew in tons of people back then, I can only imagine how bad it is now....:angry:

That was back years ago before I joined the BOC and learned how bad they are raping our rivers and how they are ruining our fishery. Now you couldn't drag me to one of those places. I like the challenge & fair chase the rivers have to offer.

 

[kitsinni]

Well if they really did live a long time and these are catch and release only for big fish why do they need to stock them so frequently?

 

[tbull]

It seems a lot of people hate Pay Lakes. More correctly, they seem to intensely dislike fish being netted, legally or illegaly and sold legally or illegaly to these lakes. I have heard a lot about Natural resource depletion and mortality rates, as well as the inhumane treatment of these animals. Does anyone have any hard data supporting the claims of these mortality rates? Have there been studies on catfish to prove or disprove the depletion theory? I know that there have been millions spent studying bass and walleye and the resulting management including slot limits and creel limits have been impressive. Look at Lake Eries Walleye management. So far I have not found much.

I have found where a Mo fish farm stocks feeder size channels at a rate of 3000 to 5000 fish per surface acre. That seems like a lot to me. Day Eleven, Midwest Tour

I don't have a dog in the hunt so to speak. It has been told to me many times that if I lived in the area and witnessed first hand the alleged devastion that the commercial netters that I would be as passionate as others on here. Perhaps that is true, perhaps not. What I am looking for is usable information for both sides to mount their fight. Opinons, suppositions, hypotheses, etc... mean very little to the powers that be. Evidence is what you need. Anyhow, I am just trying to start a civilized discussion that gives factual evidence that can be used to encourage legal changes.

When I used to fish them I saw mounds of dead cats thrown over a hill, or in a hole that was not covered, on a regular basis. This was no doubt due to stress and overstocking. Did not see it at every paylake I went to though. Usually its a safe bet that lakes that are stocking 1000's of lbs a week is due to high mortality rates. I knew the owner of one who drove clear to Arkansas to pick up 10 blues, the lightest was 70's, and the biggest was just over 100lbs. The next day when he woke up 6 of them were dead including the 100lber....You will never find any raw data simply because the people with the power dont care enough to study such things, and the owner's would be shooting themselves in the foot releasing that kind of data.

 

[smokey869]

back some years ago i used to visit the local pay lake occasionally, i personally know the owner, they dont do the thousands of pounds stocking stuff there, but they have stocked some big blues and flats, but mostly channels,the ponds there were 5-7 acres, stream fed and had been there for like 40 years, and a good bass, gill and shad supply, they would lose a fish occasionally but they were different from most paylakes i have read about, any fish caught was kept in a net in the water, they came to you and weighed and released the fish, i think a lot of them would still be there but i know of a lot of people that snuck in at night and caught fish and took them to there own private ponds or whatever, i have read on some fishing magazines that listed paylakes about some that were stocking 10,000 lbs weekly? they must been losing tons of fish, i think that if ran correctly and not overstocked or water that cant support them should not be allowed at all

 

[OHCatangler13]

as many have said everyone has there own take on pay lakes. I myself do fish them i actually fish them a lot the few that i fish at are all about taking care of there fish. they have multiple air supplies going into the lakes and if you catch a fish and need it weighed it is to be in a net and in the water as soon as the hook is out of the fish, until they get there with the scale. i have never seen the mounds of fish most talk about on here and i am good friends with one of the owner of one. with that said i also fish rivers and lakes a lot too and personally i have not seen any differerence in the fishing. I can still go to the ohio river and catch nice sized cats but i havent been fishing the ohio river long, so i dont really know what it was like 5 years ago. to answer your question i have not found any data showing any decline in river fishing.

 

[TEAM FISH A HOLICS]

Sorry to say I am a former"paylaker" until I saw the light. I seen it first hand these fish do not live more than a year in a pay pond. I ve seen half full Rumpke dumpsters of nice cats.

 

[hunted]

we started camping at one,which was a paylake and also had camping and a pool, stuff like that.was around seven to 10 acres or so. we were camping there for about two years and I never seen them put fish in the lake or see very many dead at all, and this was without aeriation. There were no blues in the lake either.
We fished another for awhile, which did not stock fish frequently, maybe once every month or every other month. They had gotten some big blues, and they died after being caught a couple of times, never seen any dead flats.
Another we fished, they rarely stocked fish, except for farm raised channels they would hold little contests for and stuff like that. I have never seen any fish dead at that lake either.
The last lake i really fished, almost made me sick. This thing was maybe 3 to four acres, and that may be pushing it a little.no aeriation in the lake at the time. They dumped in about 1000 lbs of blues in the "front" lake, and pretty much all of them were floating the next day. From what the guy running the place said, was that the fish truck was late, which would be extra stress on the fish, but the lake was not aerated and was in the middle of summer with lower oxygen levels which i don't see helping the fish out either,especially if they are caught, which would take longer than normal to recover if the oxygen levels are low, which would certainly kill a blue.

I have never seen a lake that was probably under seven acres lose many fish at all.
they at least are big enough to support some kind of environment, not like a two,three or even four acre fish bowl where you stack fish on one another thats a lot of stress to the fish without even being caught.
there should be some responsibility from the owners to at least have some kind of management course and maybe a minimum lake size to support habitat and some kind of environment for these fish to have a fightiing chance. do that to a pet and see what happens.

 

[dinkbuster1]

i used to pay lake a lot in my younger days and do remember the "dead fish truck" at one establishment that drove around every morning scooping up dead fish around their lakes (15 lakes) and throwing them in a big hole at the back of the property.the smell of that old red Ford driving by would gag a maggot!

dead channels and bullheads mostly but every day at least 1 flat a day and the occasional blue.

like catfish john stated the flats only last about a year if that, blues if in deeper water usually make it if not abused or taken home. used to fish a nearby paylake that had very strong underground springs (never froze over), they mostly stocked bulls, trout, and channels but the big fish they did stock would live through the year there if taken care of.

if they were to make over a year hows come more arent caught before the bigger fish get stocked each year beginning around mid May? in all the years i pay laked i can count on 2 hands the number of blues and flats that i knew of or seen caught before the bigger fish (flats and blues) were being stocked which usually occured in mid May when the fish haulers could "acquire them".

once again i do not like bashing pay ponds, and some of the newer modern ones have a lot of areation which may reduce mortality rates, but just giving some input on my experience at pay ponds

 

[goldfish33]

LAKE 1
March 27, 2010 – 3,000lbs of Blues
April 6, 2010 – 2,500lbs of Blues / 9 over 50lbs lake 1
April 22, 2010 – 3,000lbs of Blues totals 10,000 lbs in 2010
June 1, 2010 – 1,500lbs of Big Cats 7200 lbs in 2009

total stocked in 2010 so far== 10,000 lbs

May 4, 2009 2,000lbs of Blues stocked in Lake 1
May 15, 2009 700lbs of Blues stocked in Lake 1
June 22, 2009 1,000lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 1 making a total of 10,000lbs since April
June 7, 2009 3,000lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 1
June 9, 2009 1,500lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 1
June 9, 2009 an 86lb Blue was stocked in Lake 1

total for 2009== 7,200 lbs



LAKE 2 lake 2
March 16, 2010 – 5,000lbs of Blues / 17 over 40lbs totals 9,200 lbs in 2010
April 15, 2010 – 2,500lbs of Blues 11,100 lbs in 2009
April 20, 2010 – 1,700lbs of Blues

total stocked in 2010 so far== 9,200 lbs

July 4, 2009 2,500lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 2
June 1&2, 2009 5,500lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 2
June 6, 2009 1,500lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 2
June 26, 2009 1,600lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 2

total stocked in 2009== 11,100 lbs




LAKE 3 lake 3
February 22, 2010 – 10,000lbs of Shovelheads totals 16,000 lbs in 2010
March 18, 2010 – 3,500lbs of Blues 12,100 lbs in 2009
April 24, 2010 – 1,000lbs of Blues
May 13, 2010 – 1,500lbs of Blues – 7 over 50lbs / 6 over 40lbs

total stocked in 2010 so far== 16,000 lbs

March 28, 2009 4,300lbs of Big Blues stocked in Lake 3
April 18, 2009 500lbs of Big Blues stocked in Lake 3
June 6, 2009 80lb Shovel stocked in Lake 3
July 12, 2009 800lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 3
June 22, 2009 2,500lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 3 making a total of 10,000lbs since April
June 15, 2009 4,000lbs of Blues and Shovels stocked in Lake 3

total stocked in 2009== 12,100 lbs



according to the website the lakes are 3 acres each.
that's alot of fish and 2010 isnt over yet,one could only estimate the mortality rate but i would say it is extremely high. that is if the numbers are correct on their website.

 

[TEAM FISH A HOLICS]

I m sure I know what lake this is, its not "Paradise" it s certain death for these tropht fish makes me sick

 

[OHCatangler13]

I m sure I know what lake this is, its not "Paradise" it s certain death for these tropht fish makes me sick

To tell you the truth i have been to paradise 6 times this year and have only seen 4 fish floating dead. only one of them was over 10 pounds and it was only about 15 to 20 pounds. To be completely honest i see more dead cats floating at the lakes i fish due to people not knowing how to handle a cat if it swallows the hook and the just yank on it until it comes out. Cats die daily no mater where you are you can be fishing the ohio river or just some small acre paylake and you will see dead cats.

 

[dinkbuster1]

To tell you the truth i have been to paradise 6 times this year and have only seen 4 fish floating dead.

just because you dont see them floating dead doesnt mean they are dying. most big fish that die in a pay pond die on, or sink to the bottom. once there it takes time for the fish to start to decompose and fill with "gasses" then it will rise to the surface. every see a "fresh dead" blue or flat? i havent seen one to this day! by the time they are seen they are usually pretty far gone and quite smelly.

every pay pond i have fished had an abundance of BIG crayfish which make quick work of a big dead fish on the bottom. we caught and killed a big carp one day at a paypond, tossed it in, crayfish swarmed it, and was down to a mere skeleton in about an hour.

 

[rockbass]

It's funny to me how little common sense some people have. If a 3 acre lake has to stock 10000 lbs of cats in there each year or more, ........they are obviously dying off quick. I wonder why these places don't do more to maintain a good healthy pond that will sustain some big fish than simply have a puddle where they must constantly restock them.

Maybe I'm one of the ones on the common sense side that sees these places for what they are instead of looking at the number of 10,000 lbs of big fish and think "WOW I can't catch a hog there" :Money:

 

[kitsinni]

From what I have seen the way the fisherman treat those fish they are a commodity the only thing they fisherman care about is horsing that fish in and dragging up to the bait shop to get their money.

 

[kitsinni]

To tell you the truth i have been to paradise 6 times this year and have only seen 4 fish floating dead. only one of them was over 10 pounds and it was only about 15 to 20 pounds. To be completely honest i see more dead cats floating at the lakes i fish due to people not knowing how to handle a cat if it swallows the hook and the just yank on it until it comes out. Cats die daily no mater where you are you can be fishing the ohio river or just some small acre paylake and you will see dead cats.

What is amazing to me is what someone will convince themselves of, when they don't want to change. You are honestly trying to argue that fish die more in a normal lake than a paylake, even that they are equal? Dude just say you don't give a crap about fish, a fish is a fish and keep paylaking, but the claim that they don't die quicker in a small farm pond as opposed to their native environment is pretty absurd.

 

[Moose1]

just because you dont see them floating dead doesnt mean they are dying. most big fish that die in a pay pond die on, or sink to the bottom. once there it takes time for the fish to start to decompose and fill with "gasses" then it will rise to the surface. every see a "fresh dead" blue or flat? i havent seen one to this day! by the time they are seen they are usually pretty far gone and quite smelly.

every pay pond i have fished had an abundance of BIG crayfish which make quick work of a big dead fish on the bottom. we caught and killed a big carp one day at a paypond, tossed it in, crayfish swarmed it, and was down to a mere skeleton in about an hour.

I KNEW A GUY WHO HAD CRABS, BUT I DON'T THINK THEY ATE THAT GOOD OR THAT FAST....:doctor::bulgy-eyes::laugh1:

 

[loanwizard]

It seems to me that like any other business, there are good ones and bad ones. Looks to me that a good video camera on the hillside and dumpster dropped off to a local television station might get you the start you need.

I suppose I have been guilty of overcrowding myself..... in my bait bucket. I suppose with my awesome fishing capabilities I should only catch 2-3 live baits, but always seem to cram 20 in a 5 gallon bucket. Yup, some of them die. I think there might be a correlation between 20 gills in a bucket and 10k of cats in a 3 acre lake.

 

[OHCatangler13]

What is amazing to me is what someone will convince themselves of, when they don't want to change. You are honestly trying to argue that fish die more in a normal lake than a paylake, even that they are equal? Dude just say you don't give a crap about fish, a fish is a fish and keep paylaking, but the claim that they don't die quicker in a small farm pond as opposed to their native environment is pretty absurd.

change what do i need to change i fish rivers and pounds more than i do paylakes. but yes i will keep paylaking. i actually have palns to open one here in the next year or so. i never said that fish dont die faster out of there natural environment i just said all of you guys on here at like the only place fish die is in paylakes all i was trying to say is that fish die on daily no matter where you are river or farm pond.