Mouthing, weights, and rack quality.

Discussion in 'Deer Hunting' started by postbeetle, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. postbeetle

    postbeetle New Member

    Messages:
    6,598
    State:
    Iowa
    Kutter (Tom) talked a little about their philosophy of dealing with basket racks in his area on another thread. As many good hunters on here, has anyone had experience or recorded kills diligently in your area and group as regards body weight, age and rack size. Say somebody drops a 6 point basket rack, he mouths at 3 years and weighs 110 lb. Then compare that to a 10 pointer, mouthing at 5 years and his weight. Just a question, we never do because of the difficulty in getting an accurate weight, but as pro. as many of you guys are maybe somebody does.
     
  2. pinpunch

    pinpunch New Member

    Messages:
    10
    State:
    ohio
    :big_smile: I live in Ohio, killed 48 in 34 years. My best one was 16 points, field dressed 276lbs. My friends & I have not kept written records, only weighed some not all. The most notable basket rack we have encountered; feild dressed at 305, not mine. My friend who got it shot with one shot a 45 cal muzzel-loader, in the woods. He watched it run towards water on the other side of a hay field & lay down in the field. The field was 90 acers, about 10 inches tall, even though he watched from a tree stand, it took 4 of us about 2&1/2 hrs to find it. The most sorry rack we have every seen on that big of deer. The deer looked so old, we think he may not have lived another year. 8 point basket.:crazy:
     

  3. postbeetle

    postbeetle New Member

    Messages:
    6,598
    State:
    Iowa
    Thanks Carl for responding. Google up (aging whitetail deer) There is an article out of Texas on evaluating age by physical characteristics. Plus many more about aging by teeth.
     
  4. jeffw51

    jeffw51 New Member

    Messages:
    288
    State:
    mo
    hey john, i didnt mean to make my thread sound like yours,it did get me thinkin though,sorry
     
  5. postbeetle

    postbeetle New Member

    Messages:
    6,598
    State:
    Iowa
    Jeff, never even crossed my lil mind. Maybe we'll get enough responses to add them together. Now if it pertained to beer that would be a different story. We'd probably get more responses too. LOL
     
  6. kkyyoottee

    kkyyoottee New Member

    Messages:
    754
    State:
    Iowa
    I have hunted whitetail all my life. Didnt weigh, measure, etc on most of my harvests but have taken note on teeth and muzzle color. One year in missouri I spied me a basket rack and the freezer was running low and I put him down. Well that sucker had no teeth and a white muzzle. I told this to a friend of mine and he kinda put it simple havent you ever noticed some of your calves just didnt produce? So why would the deer clan be any different? I look at the feed we have here in Iowa for deer. I see a basket rack on my farm he goes down. Is that based on anything nope just a gut feeling 5 years later he will be like eating shoe leather just like that "yearling" in missouri was. Sorry John I got so long winded!!
     
  7. Paraguayguy

    Paraguayguy New Member

    Messages:
    1,650
    State:
    Virginia
    Genetics, genetics, genetics!
     
  8. postbeetle

    postbeetle New Member

    Messages:
    6,598
    State:
    Iowa
    Will, I have been known to yap also, we probably are genetically related. I agree entirely about the genetics part. Have been around livestock, breeders of all kinds of critters, artificial insemination of beef and dairy cow breeds, dogs. My kids probably wish I would have made more consideration for them in the genetics department.

    I have seen the same things with deer. It is not so much a matter of what they look like, horn wise, when you see them visually because you can't know what they really are (age wise) until they are dead. My observations have been if I can physically, somewhat closely, tell they are older deer, 5 1'2 years plus with small racks, my orders to the hunting crew I have had here is kill them. They don't have the "blood' we are looking for.

    One of the nicest deer taken off this place was 10 years ago. This deer was carrying a live arrow in it's shoulder. It could not jump a 5 wire barbed fence in a 15 acre pasture. Basically crippled, he could not jump that fence. He would run the pasture scrapping his rack on the fence making sparks fly in the early evening. My buddy took him down. He carried a massive rack, was grey muzzled and aged out at 7 1/2 years. His teeth were in relatively good shape for that age. We don't have sand or dry dusty conditions here. Their mouths will stay good for a long time. This deer had a walled off broadhead in his neck from a previous encounter, God knows for how long. His left rear hindquarter was atrophied from a previous slug wound. He was still actively breeding does. If that arrow guy was worth his salt that deer would have hung in his basement. My buddy has him hung with that arrow left in the mount.

    My point is, see I get long winded too, if they carry good racks from middle age on they will throw good racks in offspring. You can't always tell when they are young. That button buck you eliminate may be the next state record.

    Which gets me to this statement. Here is where the worms begin to crawl out the can. We think culls should be made on the maternal side, and have done so here for over twenty years. We cull small, unkempt does. Does with bone structures that don't "look" right to us. Does with small fawns in November and does we know that have kindled more than two fawns. It has made a difference and we can see it every year. John.
     
  9. baitchunker

    baitchunker New Member

    Messages:
    1,689
    State:
    alabama
    my small 2 cents.

    i thought i knew and participated in the only group of hunters that culls does. i have spent a lot of time watching bucks mature into real head bangers. i think they are a lot like humans. infant, goofy teenager(easily confused for bad genetics or mild retardation), prominent young men, and mature bucks. does on the other hand, i think they pretty much show what they got by year 3.
    our "rules" on killing bucks... no culls, unless they are severely crippled
    8-point or better- outside the ears.
    dont shoot the first one you see, take the time to study it, compare it, and make a good decision. look for that sagging belly etc.
     
  10. postbeetle

    postbeetle New Member

    Messages:
    6,598
    State:
    Iowa
    JD: We honestly think this is what has helped us here. We don't have enough control over the size area we would like. I will guarantee you a silver dollar to a bushel of okra that if we could the results would be enormous. John
     
  11. Cathooker

    Cathooker New Member

    Messages:
    299
    State:
    Ga
    We have a management system in place under the supervision of the University of Auburn, Alabama. We weigh each deer's live weight, record it's sex, number of points on a rack, rack size and date of kill. We pull a jawbone from each deer, tag that jaw bone with the deer's number in the log book and turn them in to the biologist. We kill as many does off this property as possible. In the past five years we have seen the rack size, body size and amount of rutting activity increase. The fawns are healthier looking and a lot more crops of twins are being born. I agree that it is
    genetic....genetics....genetics....you must select the best to breed and cull the rest.
     
  12. baitchunker

    baitchunker New Member

    Messages:
    1,689
    State:
    alabama
    i agree. we are doing this on a piece of land about 3500 acres, and bordered by river on one side and like minded clubs on the other 2 sides. it has definitely helped.
    of course another thing that helps our deer quality is our summer feeding program. i aint talkin' bout golden acorns and deer cain either. we grow a variety of plants just for the deer and turkey all year long. clay peas, soy beans, etc. but, most ppl dont have the time or $ flow to invest that heavily in hunting. i just got lucky and went to work for a decent co. that values the outdoors.
    a couple years ago we were seeing a pretty 6-point. he was outside of the ears by a long way, and most of us thought he was an older deer who had never developed brow tines. we decided not to shoot him and stick to the 8-point rule. the next year a young man killed him and he was a 146 boon and crockett 8-point, with 10 inch brow tines that twist just a lil bit. a truly beautiful deer. we have studied the pics and are positive it was the same deer from the year b4.
     
  13. kkyyoottee

    kkyyoottee New Member

    Messages:
    754
    State:
    Iowa
    I feel a need to re visit this post. I didnt say if it had "buttons" it would go down. Not that they dont make fine eatin!!! I am saying if I see a well bodied deer with a basket rack he is hamburger!! I also am a believer of hamburgering does that produce triplets. Sooner or later the deer will outnumber their food source being (farmers cornfields, beanfields, etc.) Farmers in Iowa carry a lot of political punch. I believe but will have to check to make sure I am right but a farmer is still allowed to obtain a nusciance permit and to protect his crops or livestock. Well that is what a neighbor told me that shot 64 deer on his farm. He said the only sad part was that they had to be left slaughtered instead of being processed for a food bank. Again I will look to see if this was or is allowed.
     
  14. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    I think some of you may have misunderstood what I said. We quit culling the baskets and they grew into nice racked bucks, not because their genetics changed, but because they were very YOUNG bucks with 6-8 points with no length yet. One buck we got was an 8 point that judging from his teeth, was only a 1 & 1/2 year old. It's rack was a classic basket shape. Now, the average deer we shoot is 3 & 1/2 year old and sports real nice looking 12 points or more. A few have even much better including one 196 dry score 21 point nontypical.

    Interesting take on culling the does herd of inferior does. However, where I hunt, they just want as many does killed as possible. After all, deer hunting is nice, but it IS A FARM.
     
  15. postbeetle

    postbeetle New Member

    Messages:
    6,598
    State:
    Iowa
    Your remarks Tom about killing does. We too have a tremendous problem here with does. Extremely destructive to farm folk and just the environment in general. When I moved here in 1985 it was bucks only for almost 4 years if I remember right and only one tag per season. Now as a landowner I can get two tags for 2 dollars apiece and could get more. If I wanted to purchase regular tags I could get at least two more. They now have a doe contest to see who can bring in the biggest doe (mistake, mistake). The system will crash and nature will take it's course and we will be back to no hunting or bucks only again.

    To be honest with you I hope it does do that. I really don't know any other solution.
     
  16. baitchunker

    baitchunker New Member

    Messages:
    1,689
    State:
    alabama
    kutter

    i wanna go hunt with you buddy!! 196 class 12 points, bring it on man!
     
  17. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,299
    State:
    Kentucky
    Name:
    your first name
    You guys are sure into the QDM, I havent even though about wieghing any of mine. Heck I barely get them scored. Folks around me just shoot what looks good. I havent seen any mature bucks with a basket rack though, maybe we're just lucky. You need any help on taking out those 190+ bucks Id be happy to help.:wink: