Inferior buck management

Discussion in 'Deer Hunting' started by jeffw51, Oct 8, 2007.

  1. jeffw51

    jeffw51 New Member

    Messages:
    288
    State:
    mo
    i have seen some studies that suggest bucks we use to think as inferior may just be malnurished and or just getting a late start.the study showed even spikes that reached the 150 160 range when left alone to grow.i hear some talk of basket rack bucks being inferior.last year i saw a magnificient 160 class buck following a doe and his spread could not have been 12 to 15 inches wide .at one time he was just a little basket rack buck that would never amount to nothing,now hes a giant narrow racked buck with a rack that is two feet high.alot of you are experianced game managers what is your take on this?
     
  2. kkyyoottee

    kkyyoottee New Member

    Messages:
    754
    State:
    Iowa
    Jeff I just dont believe it!!! Unless the deer you are talking about some how figured out corn and beans are the things to eat instead of grass. Nope just dont believe it!!!
     

  3. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    Yes, nutrition can improve the overall health of any deer, and thus, it's antlers. However, I believe that genetics plays an even bigger role. A deer with poor genetics is not likely to develop great antlers, no matter what it eats. Although, a deer with good genetics will never develop it's full potential, with poor nutrition.
     
  4. jeffw51

    jeffw51 New Member

    Messages:
    288
    State:
    mo
    i totally agree,you cant grow big bucks if the genetics are not there nutrition or not.but just like humans some of them just start growing later,big bucks dont always start out as wide six or eight pointers.the study i mentioned earlier stated that if a buck with good genetics starts out slow,it has a rapid exceleration of growth after the age of two and a half and tends to make up for the lost ground.they took bucks that were tagged most of them spikes watched them through the growth cycle alot of them turned out to be big bucks.
     
  5. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,296
    State:
    Kentucky
    i never did get the whole basket racks are bad thing. From what Ive seen most bucks can get impressive if you let them grow to be 4-5 years old.
     
  6. fishnfool68

    fishnfool68 New Member

    Messages:
    379
    State:
    Near Tulsa Oklahoma
    I knew a co-worker whos family put on a $25,000 big buck contest on thier private ranch in Mo.They print a magazine of all of the top 25 hunters and thier bucks.It is amazing to think all these trophy animals are shot on one ranch on one weekend.She told me they made thier own special salt licks,and planted hundreds of acres of food plots to provide the bucks the diet nessasary to produce so many trophy class deer every year.I'm telling you the 25th place guy had a like a 160class buck-first was over 200:eek:oooh:
     
  7. tkyhnt

    tkyhnt New Member

    Messages:
    125
    State:
    Missouri
    There are three key factors that generate the large antlers we seem to crave so much. The primary factor is AGE, I have yet to see a 140" deer that was a two and a half years old much less a year and a half. I have also not seen two year old spike. At a year and a half there is little that will indicate what they will be. I know on the land that I hunt the majority of year and half old deer are small 4-6 point bucks, at two they are in the 90 to 100" 8-10 point frame. At three they tend to put on even more. I have many pictures of mature deer (body size) and none are small bucks, there racks may not be the 160+ size but they are all deer that would all of us would be proud to put a tag on. If I have to rank the factors age would be first, then nutrition, then genetics. jmo
     
  8. Big B

    Big B New Member

    Messages:
    226
    State:
    North Texas
    Jeff, I too have seen those type of studies. I have seen the ones with a spike growing to a trophy basket rack. One such study followed a spike. First year it had 3in main beams. The next year he had like 5in main beams with a nub starting to show. By 7 years old he had a bigger rack but it was still small. I think it had grown to 6 pts but they weren't more than 4in each and were odd looking. But body wise he was big. If you have bad genetics you wont grow a trophy rack. On the other hand half of the genetics come from the doe. Every one concentrates on the bucks. But what about the does that are throwing inferior bucks? A doe conceived by a lesser buck can produce a buck with a big rack but it can also go the other way. Same with the inferior bucks. It's hard to figure out which does are throwing the inferior bucks but if those and the inferior bucks are removed there is nothing left but potential. If you have a place to put a protein feeder. You can give them a calcium supplement to help offset the bucks natural temporary osteoporosis during antler growth to help improve the size of the rack. If it's not your property I wouldn't worry too much about culling out the lesser ones. You never know what you might get in a year or two.
     
  9. kkyyoottee

    kkyyoottee New Member

    Messages:
    754
    State:
    Iowa
    I can prove the age thing wrong in a heart beat. I take 2 cows feed one starve the other and I guarntee you what the result would be. Example number 2 I take a runt bull and breed him to 2 identical cows then I take a grand champion bull and breed him to these same 2 cows and I show you the offspring and the sires I bet if ya was from New York city you could tell me who did what. Gene's , food, age in that order and its not hard to prove even with cattle. But whats even more important and I would bet my last dollar to the young man who was talking about the buck contest on some ranch. Call them and I bet they tell you their goal is 2 to 1 does to bucks!!! And I bet they arent letting some scrub buck do any breeding nor are the biggest baddiest bucks on that farm allowing it either.
     
  10. chambers bd

    chambers bd New Member

    Messages:
    1,134
    State:
    Sautee,Geo
    Hi Folks,
    So I said to david {my son}
    These are culles {boom} now lets make some bbq.:smile2:
     
  11. catfishrus

    catfishrus New Member

    Messages:
    1,569
    State:
    north carolina
    if im not mistake the big buck on buckmasters show was a spike buck at 1 1/2 years of age. last i heard he was in the 230 class nontyipcal. keep in mind he was pen raised though. basket racks...well lots of bucks in the record books with less than 17" spread. spread means the least of all measurements when scoring for trophies for b&c. its all mass and tine lenght... all of these require age. you compare a 17" buck with heavy mass to a 24" wide thin horned buck with the same points an the heavy horned buck will out score 90% of the time. give me mass because i know hes old then. i do believe a buck at 2-3 years old at say a 6-7 point frame will remain a 6-7 point frame for a long period of time if not its whole life. just like a 2 year old 10 point with a small basket rack will grow into a giant in given time with proper food.

    as for the hunt with 25 bucks.....that is a high fenced hunt period. ive hunted some great places in my time and all i can tell you is look at any outfitter on the web in fair chase conditions in the biggest buck country in the world and none of them can do what you are saying with 25 bucks all over 160 in fair chase conditions. the best you will see will be some claiming to average in the 140-150 class but they forget about ol joe who shot the frist buck he saw. pay close attention too because its worded tricky! key words our "mature bucks" gross in the 140-150 class. they didnt say all their bucks gross in the 140-150s.:wink: a great outfitter will produce 1-3 bucks in the 160-170 class and up when lucky out of 30-40 hunters in fair chase.
     
  12. David Knotts

    David Knotts New Member

    Messages:
    2,569
    State:
    Bossier City, La
    In my opinion, if a buck has spikes, and they come out past his nose, he has agrey face, and is around 200 pounds, well he needs to be shot. I killed one like that 3 years ago, don't know how old he was cause he did'nt have any teath.

    The lease that I'm on in Louisiana, we kill a lot of 3 year old spike. I'm talkin 6 or 7 ayear. I've seen a few with 17 inch long spikes. Now these deer aint the mack daddy of the woods, they need to go.
     
  13. 223reload

    223reload New Member

    Messages:
    10,798
    State:
    Oklahoma
    All this talk about Racks is makin me dizzy ,Heck I just go huntin ,If I see a legal buck ,[which by the way is a fork on one side or better here ] and I have a shot ,he's goin home with me . I'd love to get a massive buck ,but I'm more interested in fillin my freezer .
     
  14. Zing

    Zing Member

    Messages:
    327
    State:
    Tennessee
    I belive there was an article in peterson hunting mag, or north america hunter, that took hunderds of yearling and 1 1/2 year olds and tagged or collard them. They were spikes and fork horns, they said that they did mature into mature bucks. I belive this study was done in Texas I forget the university that did the study. I am now leaving the cow horns alone and taken out the really messed up racks out on the older deer. My son killed one around 250lbs, 5ptr last year, one side was 17" the other 5". These bucks are the ones were taking out and rest have to be outside the ears 8pt or better. We will see how that goes