I Need the Knowledge of an Expert Framer

Discussion in 'General Conversation' started by Mark J, Nov 29, 2006.

  1. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

    Messages:
    9,407
    State:
    Four Oaks, NC
    Ok, so yall may have seen my barn thread and here is what I'm trying to figure out. I'm not new to framing but I sure aint a professional. I'm knowledgeable enough to layout steps and rafters, walls, T's, corners, jacks, and headers.

    Inside my block barn I'm framing walls up around the perimeter. Its roughly 17x21 feet.
    I want to span the width in the center with a beam to tie joists on both sides to.
    My actual beam length doesnt have to be 17 feet, I can get by with 16 feet because the way the tile block was laid to account for the tier poles by the time my stud wall gets about 5 feet high the way the block is laid changes making the space of the room roughly 8 inches wider from 5 feet off the finished floor to the roof.

    I want to do all my framing of the second floor, floor with 2x10 southern yellow pine and this beam I'm asking about I want the same width as the 2x10. In other words I want a flat ceiling downstairs.
    My idea but I'm no engineer is to span it with 4- 2x10's with 1/2" plywood between each one and staggering the plywood joints. The second floor load isnt going to be all that high especially in the center. I would consider it a live load of a bedroom which is 20 I think instead of 40. I know my load isnt going to cause little if any deflection but I dont want this beam to sag because of the 16-17 foot span.

    LVL's are an option but I haven't priced them.
    If I can go with the 2x10's I'm looking at about 60 bucks for a beam versus 2 or 3 LVL's at a cost of???? At this point steel is not an option for cost reasons and reasons that I am doing this myself . Help is very limited.
     
  2. Cheryl

    Cheryl Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,010
    State:
    TN
    Mark,

    I think we still need to come help you and just do an old fashioned "barn raisin"


    Good luck.
    Cheryl
     

  3. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

    Messages:
    9,407
    State:
    Four Oaks, NC
    cheryl, I'm way too picky. Everyone would be pissed off and long gone before we finished the first fishing lie.
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L New Member

    Messages:
    1,012
    State:
    Minnesota
    I am no framer though I think the 4-2x10's would be sufficient.
    What is the plywood for?
     
  5. FishMan

    FishMan New Member

    Messages:
    2,293
    State:
    Tennessee
    Mark I would be afraid that much span would sag after some time you may want a steel beam. I am not up on the newer made made beams but using stick lumber the chart would call for 12 buys I believe. If bottom clearance is not a problem bracing from near the center to both sides would also solve your problem. The beam you speak of building sounds really good I just think thicker will not equal the strength of inches. It will for some time but gravity will work over time to weaken and sag. Also remember the charts were written using the strength of virgin timber and todays lumber is not that strong so always bigger.

    These beams are very important and should be overdone. You may need to raise all other joist up to become level with the workhorse beams

    I have built for myself,family and friends only maybe a professional will help out here but from what I know the fact you ask this question makes me feel you know what you are doing even if you don't know how so I will bet you greatly succeed.

    Good building to you.
     
  6. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

    Messages:
    9,407
    State:
    Four Oaks, NC
    Plywood is commonly used in headers for 2 reasons. The first is that a 2x4 wall is 3-1/2 inches wide. A 2by is 1-1/2" thick. So two layers of of a 2 by would be 3" wide and a 1/2" shy of the wall width throwing either the rock off or the siding.

    The second and more important reason is strength. The plywood adds rigidity to the header. If you stand a 2x4 on edge and then stand on it , it will deflect. Add a 1/2" layer of plywood to the side of that 2x4 and its alot harder to deflect. You can sandwich flat steel and accomplish basicly the same thing but there again, steel is high .
     
  7. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

    Messages:
    9,407
    State:
    Four Oaks, NC
    Fishman, I have charts that dictates joist widths for various spans but nothing that informs me of the size of a beam I need that will span the width and carry the load of the joists.

    My thinking is along the lines of yours, in that wider isn't always going to solve a span problem. Depth would.
     
  8. bud1110

    bud1110 New Member

    Messages:
    1,096
    State:
    East Texas
    Mark,

    If 16 or 17ft is all the span your going to have, the 2x10's will work just fine. I have used even fewer 2x10's and had no problem with them. Now when I'm going longer spans we use laminated beams, but they are expensive.

    Sounds like what youre talking about will work and be more than strong enough..
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L New Member

    Messages:
    1,012
    State:
    Minnesota
  10. bud1110

    bud1110 New Member

    Messages:
    1,096
    State:
    East Texas
    Mark,

    I forgot to add, when you lay out for the floor/ceiling joist, put them on the diamond...19 & 5/16. Cut 2x10 blocks 17 & 5/8 to go in between them for pressure blocks. This will allow you to get a good nailing and make your joists strong...
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L New Member

    Messages:
    1,012
    State:
    Minnesota
  12. FS Driver

    FS Driver New Member

    Messages:
    2,323
    State:
    swansea,illinoi
    im not a framer but i have a few ideas .
    the laminated beams bud mentions are high but can you make them yourself?
    a router and glue clamps and i think you would be able to make your own for cheaper.
    i see laminated beams with osb web and they are supposed to be very strong.
    just an idea
     
  13. FS Driver

    FS Driver New Member

    Messages:
    2,323
    State:
    swansea,illinoi
    by the way wheres that barn thread?
     
  14. Dano

    Dano New Member

    Messages:
    13,712
    State:
    Texas
    Mark, I'm no help here in typeing a post.
    You want to get r done right the fist time.
    Smart man.
     
  15. Stlnifr

    Stlnifr New Member

    Messages:
    81
    State:
    South Carolina
    Here in South Carolina we are required to put a pillow under a drop sill that is made out of double 2X10's pillows spaced 8 foot apart so I would guess a pole wood have to go under a beam that you are going to attach the joist to and I would use joist hangers at the beam. A singe 2x10 floor joist spaced 16 inches apart will span 12 feet. I believe 2 2x12's with a plywood center glued and screw will hold the weight of the floor joist plus live load. You can always talk to the local building inspector for what is allowed in your area. There advise is free and they usually have the current code books.
     
  16. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

    Messages:
    9,407
    State:
    Four Oaks, NC
    DRC, you are talking about manufactured joists. I would like to use those but cost is the issue. I would probally toy with the idea of building them myself and have but I dont have a suitable place yet. The shop is under construction:lol: .

    The laminated beams Bud is referring to is the LVL- Laminated veneer lumber.
    There are different brands likes Microlam etc. Its a solid beam.

    Bud, thanks for the help. I was teetering back and forth on it thinking it would be fine and then second guessing.
    I didnt want to put 450 dollars worth of lumber into a floor system not including the plywood ceiling and the subfloor only to encounter problems.
    Building projects are always fun fun fun dealing with an existing structure that wasnt built or intended for what you are doing. Fortunately its pretty square and the 15" tall 6" wide concrete footer I poured around the interior perimeter and capped the existing footer with gives me something dead level to build on , otherwise this would be a complicated frustrating endeavor to get the results I'm looking for.
     
  17. Fishinfreak

    Fishinfreak Member

    Messages:
    256
    State:
    North Bend,Ohio
    LVL`S are the way to go.I have framed many houses over the years and i can tell you those beams don`t give.Call your local truss company and they will tell you the sizes that will work for your needs.Sometimes they have extras around that they will part with. Nailing and stagering bolts is a must.Just make sure the bolts are out of the way of the joist and hangers. Best of luck to you.Randy
     
  18. Bubbakat

    Bubbakat New Member

    Messages:
    4,532
    State:
    McMinnvill
    Now Mark I have been following this post because I going to build a wide building so you are going to have to quit useing those 3 dollar words on my 50 cent brain.:big_smile:
     
  19. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

    Messages:
    9,407
    State:
    Four Oaks, NC
    George, SHHHHHHHH, I done gone too far to be asking a building inspector anything:big_smile: I'm not into paying for engineered drawings, inspection fees and penalties for a barn.
    The one thing I dont have to worry about is that I'm not a cobbler. I'm picky and often go beyond code to achieve what I'm looking for. like the additional footing I capped the old one with. The two footers are not only pinned together, the new one is full of rebar.

    The inspection department would make me jump through hoops and spend beaucoup bucks to turn a 60 year old tobbaco barn into a shop living quarters arrangement. I was fortunate in that I always kept paying a lightbill on a barn that was never used for anything so one day I could circumnavigate the beauracracy of the county. Had I ever let the power be shut off , I would have had to do the hoop dance to get it cut back on. :eek:oooh:
    It'll be masterpiece when done . All the wiring will be in conduit, Plumbing that goes well beyond hots on the left , colds on the right, pay day is on Friday and crap dont flow up hill without a pump.
    Every piece of shop equipment will be on wheels, welders will be on wheels, bolt bins will be on wheels, work stations will be on wheels, dust collection, 2 stage air compressor with rigid piping. An oiled air tool supply line and a seperate air line for painting. Retractable air hose, cord, and lights reels.
    Everything will have HVAC. It's not your normal backyard tool storage, It's a place away from the house hidden away that hopefully one day I can make a good living out of.

    Now I got to figure out where to bury a septic tank.
     
  20. fish

    fish Active Member

    Messages:
    1,573
    State:
    ChattanoogaTenn
    Mark, Bud is on the right track with the beam. I would use construction adhesive and 1/2 inch plywood and stagger the joints of the plywood not to break within at least 36 inches of the adjacent run of plywood. I would bolt this all together and it will make a very very strong beam. You shouldn't have very much deflection at all, if any. The yellow pine is some very strong framing material also and with the span no longer than you are making, you will be more than fine.