Do fish feel pain?

Discussion in 'Catfishing Baits' started by CamFish3210, Sep 29, 2006.

  1. CamFish3210

    CamFish3210 New Member

    Messages:
    33
    State:
    Texas
    When i went deep sea fishing years ago, i was told by the first mate that worked for us that fish don't feel pain. I know that most invertebrates lack central nervousness (an area of the brain thats linked to nerve endings in the body) which only lets them feel the pressure of pain but not the actual sharpness and agony that most animals feel. anyone else know of anything on this subject?
     
  2. teaysvalleyguy

    teaysvalleyguy New Member

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    9,751
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    GC, OHIO
    Not sure, but I feel them going down my tummy when I eat em. :big_smile:
     

  3. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    3,485
    State:
    Missouri
    One that I would like the answer too.Thanks for askin!:big_smile:
     
  4. Big Merc

    Big Merc New Member

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    16
    State:
    St. Louis, Missouri
    Fish do feel pain, scientists say


    By Alex Kirby
    BBC News Online environment correspondent
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/shared/img/999999.gif

    The first conclusive evidence of pain perception in fish is said to have been found by UK scientists.
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39150000/jpg/_39150825_troutb_203_bbc.jpg Fish have pain receptors like us

    This complements earlier findings that both birds and mammals can feel pain, and challenges assertions that fish are impervious to it.
    The scientists found sites in the heads of rainbow trout that responded to damaging stimuli.
    They also found the fish showed marked reactions when exposed to harmful substances.
    The argument over whether fish feel pain has long been a subject of dispute between anglers and animal rights activists.
    The research, by a team from the Roslin Institute and the University of Edinburgh, is published in Proceedings B of the Royal Society, the UK's national academy of science.
    The researchers, led by Dr Lynne Sneddon, say the "profound behavioural and physiological changes" shown by the trout after exposure to noxious substances are comparable to those seen in higher mammals.
    They investigated the fish for the presence of nociceptors, sites that respond to tissue-damaging stimuli.
    Multiple sensitivity
    The researchers applied mechanical, thermal and chemical stimuli to the heads of anaesthetised fish and recorded their neural activity.
    Dr Sneddon said: "We found 58 receptors located on the face and head of the trout that responded to at least one of the stimuli.
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39159000/jpg/_39159119_angling203.jpg
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote.gif Fish just don't have the brains to recognise pain http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote.gif


    Dr Bruno Broughton
    National Angling Alliance

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

    Head-to-head: Feelings of fish
    Click here to have your say

    "Of these, 22 could be classified as nociceptors in that they responded to mechanical pressure and were stimulated when heated above 40 Celsius.
    "Eighteen receptors also responded to chemical stimulation and can be defined as polymodal nociceptors."
    These polymodal receptors are the first to be found in fish, and resemble those in amphibians, birds and mammals, including humans.
    But mechanical thresholds were lower than those found in human skin, for example, perhaps because fish skin is relatively easily damaged.
    Double check
    The mere presence of nociception in an animal is not enough to prove that it feels pain, because its reaction may be a reflex.
    Proof requires demonstrating that the animal's behaviour is adversely affected by a potentially painful experience, and that these behavioural changes are not simple reflex responses.
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39150000/jpg/_39150827_troutfarm_203_bbc.jpg Hurt trout behaved differently

    So the researchers injected bee venom or acetic acid into the lips of some of the trout, with control groups receiving saline solution injections or simply being handled.
    All the fish had been conditioned to feed at a ring in their tank, where they were collected for handling or injection.
    Dr Sneddon said: "Anomalous behaviours were exhibited by trout subjected to bee venom and acetic acid.
    Different development
    "Fish demonstrated a 'rocking' motion, strikingly similar to the kind of motion seen in stressed higher vertebrates like mammals.
    "The trout injected with the acid were also observed to rub their lips onto the gravel in their tank and on the tank walls. These do not appear to be reflex responses."
    The fish injected with venom and acid also took almost three times longer to resume feeding than the control groups.
    Dr Sneddon said the team's work "fulfils the criteria for animal pain". Previous work on fish had looked at the elasmobranchs, fish including sharks, skates and rays with cartilaginous skeletons, and at primitive vertebrates like the lamprey.
    Dr Sneddon said: "These studies did not conclusively show the presence of nociceptors.
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote.gif It's shocking that people will still go fishing for fun http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote.gif


    Dawn Carr
    Peta (Europe)

    "We believe our study is the first work with fish of the teleost family [those with bony skeletons], and the results may represent an evolutionary divergence between the teleost and elasmobranch lineages."
    The Fish Veterinary Society described the research as "an interesting contribution to the debate".
    Dawn Carr, director of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Europe), said: "It's shocking that people will still go fishing for fun.
    "For every cruel thing people do, there is a compassionate alternative.
    "There are so many ways to enjoy the outdoors - we hope people would go hiking, camping, boating; any sort of sport that doesn't involve animal suffering would be preferable," she said.
    HAVE YOUR SAY
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/start_quote.gif Sport fishing should be immediately banned http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/end_quote.gif


    Mike, England

    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/img/v3/inline_dashed_line.gif

    Send us your comments

    The organisation Compassion in World Farming called upon the UK Government to respond to the findings with legislation to improve the living conditions of fish living on fish farms.
    The UK's National Angling Alliance described the study's finding's as "surprising".
    Dr Bruno Broughton, a fish biologist and NAA adviser, said: "I doubt that it will come as much of a shock to anglers to learn that fish have an elaborate system of sensory cells around their mouths...
    "However, it is an entirely different matter to draw conclusions about the ability of fish to feel pain, a psychological experience for which they literally do not have the brains," he said.
    He quoted from a study by Professor James Rose of the University of Wyoming, US, in which it was found fish did not possess the necessary and specific regions of the brain, the neocortex.
     
  5. SkiMax

    SkiMax Well-Known Member

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    2,012
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    Rising Sun, IN
    If fish don't feel pain they sure flop around an awful lot when being cleaned.
     
  6. MRR

    MRR New Member

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    4,947
    State:
    Louisiana,Mo.
    I strongly believe that all of GODS living creatures feel some sort of pain.How much I don't know. However that is a very good question.Probably open to a lot of disscuession(misspelled).
     
  7. teaysvalleyguy

    teaysvalleyguy New Member

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    9,751
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    Surprised PETA has not joined and chimed in yet. LMAO
     
  8. buddah

    buddah New Member

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    1,622
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    Pennsylvania Wi
    I would suspect that they do. JMO
     
  9. ninrugger

    ninrugger New Member

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    State:
    WI
    this is pure skepulation for the most part....but i think fish due feel pain, like us. however, most animals won't or don't show it. if they did, this would draw in potential predators looking for an easy meal. with that being said, the real question is, due fish feel 'pain' in their mouth. after all, trying to swallow a fish with it's fins flaired out would be right up there with getting a hook in the mouth. animals, including us, have areas that have more nerve endings then others. for us, our mouths are one of the most sensative areas on our body. this is partly the reason why babies stick EVERYTHING into their mouths. our eyes are one of the least sensative. with the exception of the optic nerve, there aren't very many nerves in the eye ball. for the most part, any irritation or pain in the area is felt through the inside of the eye lid. i think there are fish that have very sensative mouths. and others who don't. here's the speculation part....i think fish with a more fleshy mouth, i.e. catfish, carp, trout.....have a more sensative mouth. bass, panfish and the like might not have a very sensative mouth. i think it comes down to evolution, what the fish were designed to forage on....imho.
     
  10. slimepig

    slimepig New Member

    Messages:
    666
    State:
    Kerrville Texas
    i believe they do, but its probably not as bad as the hunger pain i feel when I dont have any fish to eat!
     
  11. Larry Collier

    Larry Collier New Member

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    149
    State:
    Wagoner, Oklahoma
    If you discover you have a fish on your hands that is in pain quickly dress it and submerge it in hot cooking oil until it floats - the poor suffering catfish will become immediately calm everytime!

    Best to Ya

    Larry
     
  12. grizzly

    grizzly New Member

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    229
    State:
    Griffithville, Arkansas
    I would agree with MRR, I just don't know the extent. MRR, I can't spell either brother. grizzly
     
  13. ka_c4_boom

    ka_c4_boom New Member

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    2,252
    State:
    Bedford,Ky
    if you knew that fish felt pain would you quit fishing ?
     
  14. Netmanjack

    Netmanjack New Member

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    3,734
    State:
    Ohio
    I know Beef feel pain,and I definitely won't quit eating steak! Or should I say surf and turf lol:big_smile:
     
  15. JamisonM

    JamisonM New Member

    Messages:
    71
    State:
    South Carolina
    The only thing that will stop me from fishing is me leaving this world. So, no, I wouldn't stop fishing, but I would probably change the way I fish. Many times I have gone to the local pier to fish and hooked into stingrays. Many are hooked deep or just outright swallow the hook and there is nothing I can do about that. The other half of the problem is that same pier is nearly 40 feet up from the water. I have to haul them up this height and then return them at this height.
    Usually, we grab the main line and pull them up no matter how their hooked and then they are dropped back in, sometimes hitting the water very hard with a loud clap. Not only is this the way we hauled up stingray, but anything else that took the bait and was hooked. I look back on all that and wonder what I accomplished. What was it all for? How many of those fish those were hooked deep or swallowed the hook survived; how many died?
    That I can't answer, but I think if anything it shows that I showed little to no respect towards the fish caught, especially since I don't usually keep anything. I did all that just for my amusement. I’m not saying that fish can or can’t feel pain, not that their smart or stupid, but they are living creatures that were put on this earth by who or whatever created this world and everything around it and that we should respect them just because of this. I probably sound pretty stupid to many of you, but this question raised some serious issues in me.
    Will I stop fishing; no. Like I already said; I will never stop fishing until I leave this world, but I would probably change the way I fish. Instead of throwing any and everything back after taking a few pictures, I’ll start keeping and eating more fish. I may start to fish less frequently and when I do go target certain sized fish. I‘ll fish until I catch my limit in pounds of fish; just enough to keep the freezer decently stocked. If something too small is hooked it will be thrown back and it should be thankful that it wasn’t killed for food.
    That’s also the main reason I may be fishing for from now on; for food. I may not be a wild animal that lives outside, but I can be killed just as easily as an animal my size and when I do die my body will also have little difference in the way it breaks down compared with that very same animal. What I’m saying is that even though I am not directly a part of nature as say, that squirrel in the oak tree, I am still affected by it. One animal eats another to live and I am no different. I also have no plans to become a vegetarian anytime soon.
    So, I’ll keep fishing until I die, but the fish aren’t there for me, they’re there with me.
     
  16. pylodictis

    pylodictis New Member

    Messages:
    81
    State:
    pennsylvania
    i have a different take on the subject of pain and animals. when i was a kid i saw a toad smushed on the road and felt bad. i knew it had died quickly, but, as this was the end of a life, i felt a bit of remorse thinking that the thing would never see its family again. later i remembered that toads don't have families. they are laid as eggs and left to fend for themselves. they have mothers, but not like we do. even animals that do have mothers that care for them don't have fathers like we do. i began to see that i had made a mistake in assuming that death always means mourning. i added my prejudice as a human being to the experience of another creature and came up with something that didn't make any sense.

    i think we tend to do this on the subject of pain. i think it could be possible that the reaction of an animal to a stimulis that likely means damage is being done to it invites us to assume that they are experiencing the whole psychological package that we would.
    let's face it- what would be the worst thing for a human being about being yanked off the bottom of the river by a hook in our palate.. would it be the physical pain, or the psychological pain. i for one know that i would be fearful of death, fearful for my wife and child, fearful of any unresolved aspect of my life. i would also be angry about how unfair it seemed and about the pain it would cause the people who love me.
    my wife went through excruciating pain when she had our son. she had all the typical reactions to damaging stimuli- raised blood pressure, grimacing, increased adrenaline, etc. but she was not fearing for her life and knew exactly what was going on and what the pain meant. in the middle of the experience, she couldn't stop telling everyone how awesome it was. so, obvioulsly pain doesn't always mean trauma. increased adrenaline doesn't always mean fear, anger, and regret. as human beings with one basic way of looking at the experience of pain, are we capable of isolating it as a physiological reaction without adding in the human package

    i think this is the same mistake a lot of animal rights people make. i think they assume that because a cow has big brown eyes, it must feel the same emotions we do. don't their eyes just look so sad... no they don't look sad, they look big and brown. a football is big and brown, but i don't assume it's sad. as people, we can look into another person's eyes and see a lot of what's going on in their consciousness, but just because something has eyes doesn't mean it has a consciousness. i'm not saying it doesn't have one, but i'd need some other kind of proof to say it does.

    why don't we campaign for vegetable rights... because vegetables don't have big brown eyes. but is there any intrinsic difference between killing a carrot and killing a cow... aren't they both alive... what gives a cow's life greater value than a carrot's... not a thing... and none of it matters anyway because for people, and almost every other animal, to live, something else must , in whole or in part, die. we are afraid to die and we are afraid of pain. we see the whole world through those eyes and sometimes we come up with something that doesn't make any sense.
     
  17. BigGreen

    BigGreen New Member

    Messages:
    69
    State:
    IL
    I always figured they felt pain. I site a catfish growl as evidence or a bluegill with his top fins ( those suckers hurt if yer not payin attention).
     
  18. Crayzie

    Crayzie New Member

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    23
    State:
    Portsmouth, Ohio
    It won't stop me from fishing, but I do try to show as much respect to the fish as I can..
     
  19. Dmitri

    Dmitri New Member

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    577
    State:
    Illinois
    I have read that there was a study done saying that Catfish have little to no nerve endings of any sort in their mouth and therefore can't feel pain or really even much pressure on their mouth.
     
  20. pylodictis

    pylodictis New Member

    Messages:
    81
    State:
    pennsylvania
    it makes sense that they wouldn't have a lot of nerve endings in their lips and palates. they have to be tough, like the bottom of a foot. right near by, though, are the whiskers and they are loaded with nerve endings. What i noticed is that when i hook a channel, especially a small one, the hook is big enough to go all the way through the palate, cheek, or lip, and often comes out through the eye :crazy: . that's why i usually use barbless hooks.