Debate or Argue and issue, that is the question

Discussion in 'General Conversation' started by Mac-b, Aug 13, 2008.

  1. Mac-b

    Mac-b Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Messages:
    19,242
    State:
    North Caro
    On the BOC there is a tendency to argue an issue rather than to debate an issue. Argue and debate have there place when discussing an issue. If you want to dicuss an issue one on one, it is acceptable to argue the facts. But, if you are going to do it on an open forum, such as the BOC it might be advisable to debate an issue.

    Debate is a formal method of interactive and position representational arguement. Debate is a broader form of argument than logical argument, which only examine the consistency from axiom, and factural argument, which only examine what is or isn't the case.

    In formal debate, there are usually rules that you will agree to prior to the debate, but on an open forum that is probably not feasible.

    Debating should never become personal on any kind of basis. Name calling, bringing up previous statements by others that have no bearing on the issue should not occur.

    On all the fishing boards that I have ever been associated with there have always been arguments about CPR, jugging, limb lines, fish traps, tournament fishing, rod and reel fisherperson verses all other types of fishing techniques, politics, religion, sport fishing verses commercial fishing, flatheads verses all other types of catfish, etc.

    Traditions and preferences always gets in the way of facts when an issue arises. Each side could make a better argument for their side if they would do a little research, rather than going off half cocked and claiming this or that in the heat of the moment and from that point there is no turning back from those statements, which only compounds the problem with additonal remarks. This is a common occurence on the BOC and there is a solution to the problem. If you see a thread that you don't like from a traditional standpoint or your own preference, don't act right away. Reread the thread and other replys and then if you want to step in and contribute, do it with facts, not your heart only, you will be a better member for that and you might turn someone to your position, rather than being some one else for someone to beat up on.

    The fact that you are on the BOC is evidence enough that you know how to get around on the internet. So, why don't you do a Google Search on the issue and you might be surprised that there might be some facts out there that would or could support your position. Saying my daddy or uncle said this or that, don't cut it in a debate or help with the message you want to get across to the membership or the party that started the issue.
    Almost every state in the Union has done some kind of study, big or small on catfish and it is ours for the asking.

    When you see a local issue being discussed in Texas, for example, and you live in Maine, why would you want to come over to the Texas thread and have your say? What purpose would it serve? If you lived in an adjoining state and the results might affect your area, then I can see justification for your presents and contribition.

    Last but not least, all debates and/or arguments have a life and there is a point that they should die. When they die, they are here for us for historial information to use as we see fit. It is also time for me to exit this issue.
     
  2. john catfish young

    john catfish young New Member

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    Good advice Mac...........thanks!
     

  3. Phil Washburn

    Phil Washburn New Member

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    sounds to me like you are equating argue with bicker, which many do. to argue a point is not an ignoble thing. an attorney would argue his point in court.:big_smile:





    and i agree, it would benefit all of us, and especially the poster, if he would research his info a little more.
     
  4. john catfish young

    john catfish young New Member

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    3,070
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    Mac.....in regards to your question asked concerning why would you want to come over to the Texas thread and have your say.
    I have lived and fished in several of our great states and topics of concern in some of these states still concern me as well. I may live or fish there again someday. I may simply have friends there or family there. There are lots of reasons that this might occurr.:big_smile:
    Anyway.....like you said this is an open forum.....and any thread is open for discussion from any and all members.
     
  5. baitchunker

    baitchunker New Member

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    mac there is a national radio show that i sometimes listen to. its a bunch of hillbilly's from n.c. making fun of... well everything. they allways have a "special guest" on there who uses the catch phrase-
    "john boy n billy! yall keep em straight up thar..."

    i think you do a fine job of keeping "em" (us) straight.
     
  6. jolie

    jolie New Member

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    PA
    The problem is far too quickly it becomes too personal. A guy with a wonderful catch (and an obvious accomplishment) being confronted (or Affronted perhaps) by an avid CPRer. someone saying that because some juggers are messy and leave clutter juggers should be banned or severely restricted.

    The spirit of debate, presupposes that they will be some good end to the discussion. A consensus ruling for example for a state agency; or endorsement of a politician from an organization.

    I don't see useful purposes for the kind of personal opinionated arguments that happens when discussing the controversial issues of the day and usually only chime in If I feel someone is being personal.

    I also have a very bad habit of replying when the poster seems to be saying something that I know isn't right. Its my inclination to explain to such a person what I know about something...these usually aren't studies they are general widespread knowledge.

    The problem with that is that Too often I find that I have given them a 12th grade explanation when someone else on the board has done doctorate work on it, so to speak. I'm not an expert on any of this stuff.


    This is a good thread, and I will come back to what you say, but I want it to be more than just a guideline about how to argue or debate.

    WHY should the BOC debate issues of the day, anyway??

    The BOC is still an incredibly small sliver of the fishermen that catch (or want to catch) catfish -one of my books says this is 10 million anglers*?
    we are spread out; and would have little political clout whatever pride might say.

    And since it is often too personal and can detracts from the respectful spirit of brotherhood, that should prevail in an diverse organization of man and woman dedicated to catching catfish.


    *this is a tough number to find online;
     
  7. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

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    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    Very insightful thread. I would agree to all except:

    "When you see a local issue being discussed in Texas, for example, and you live in Maine, why would you want to come over to the Texas thread and have your say? What purpose would it serve? If you lived in an adjoining state and the results might affect your area, then I can see justification for your presents and contribition."

    As stated above by John Young, there could be any number of reasons. I have either lived in or fished 38 states and 16 countries. I currently live near St Louis, MO.. From your prospective, you would limit me to MO & IL only??? Numerous times I have gone to the other state areas and posted. I can name at least one member here who caught his personal best catfish at a hole along a river I used to fish and gave him exact directions too. Surely you wouldn't deny him that opportunity? Before I took a trip to Lake Dardenelle, in Arkansas, I went to that section and asked a lot of questions. How many other reasons do I need to come up with? Your post was so good, other than this one paragraph, I can only surmise that you had a misscue. We all do from time to time. LOL:wink:
     
  8. Mac-b

    Mac-b Moderator Staff Member Supporting Member

    Messages:
    19,242
    State:
    North Caro
    Kutter, I have read your writings for quite a spell and have enjoyed them, especially those relating to the husband and wife team that we have or is that wife and husband team. But, my comment that is of concern to you and others, does not state that you can't come onto a thread in another state and find out fishing information. What I spoke to of was local problems/issues that applies only to maybe a lake or part of a river, etc. Most of the time these issues are political in nature and may require local or state regulations. If you or others every need any fishing information for NC and I read your need for info., I would try to be the first to respond to you inquiry. I have done it before and will do it again. You stated that I might of had a miscue, it might be possible, sometimes I can not see the forest for the trees. Thanks for your comments. Mac
     
  9. BIG GEORGE

    BIG GEORGE New Member

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    10,362
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    JOISY
    A debate ends with a potential solution. An argument ends with a sor jaw. LOL! Thats what I hate most about the internet.:wink:
     
  10. jolie

    jolie New Member

    Messages:
    828
    State:
    PA
    quote=katfshn50;1156102]A debate ends with a potential solution. An argument ends with a sor jaw. LOL! Thats what I hate most about the internet.:wink:[/quote]

    Insightful

    this is, exactly, my point. I CAN ignore controversial threads... but the big tit for tat , flamewar opinion arguments are worse than a waste of bandwidth. They Don't offer potential solution and no one would implement a solution even if we all agreed (which we won't because the BOC is about including as many catfisherman/catfishwoman as possible). and more than likely someone is going to be offended or say something offensive....

    So my point is very philosophical. why debate (at all)? most of you guys are not experts at fish management nor an influential member of your state fish commission. If you don't try to debate 'banning Trotlines'...'release all 34+" catfish; you'll find that you won't really need to spend hours of exhaustive internet searching trying to find some obscure fish study... that is summarizes a small group of waters most of us catfishermen don't fish.

    Instead, we can talk about 'when conditions favor a floating rig',etc. and then it is your own personal experience that you are sharing. better fishermen sharing there skills and giving tips to novice; and everyone sharing their successes and failures... there's still alot to talk about if we leave the tired, controversial no-win arguments behind us.

    An occasional 'this is why I CPR 10#+ fish' or a little venting about someone rude in a boat or some fishermen that left a big mess on the side of the river hardly is a personal attack either.

    I'm not trying to condemn any of the threads but if we try to avoid the arguments, rules of debate shouldn't be a big concern. I also think that Mac's statement about researching the internet should NOt be taken out of context.

    I opionate a lot here. If we are friends and not arguing there shouldn't be a problem with that. In Fact, your skills and methods of catfishing ARE opinion. (There's no Perfect way to fish for catfish). If you have the need to exhaustively research on the internet, you probably are in an argument. You might be wrong. You might Not know as much as other people reading the thread. You might write something you think is really clever, and just look like a fool to those that are smarter and more educated.

    That being said, big argumentative debates in some threads are as dependable as taxes.:eek:oooh:. Much as I think they are pointless; I can think of reasons that might tempt me to participate. Here's to hoping that I don't and stay out of argumentative threads.

    In fact, perhaps this very thread will will turn 'argumentative':tounge_out::tounge_out:
    [philosophical dilema]
     
  11. JERMSQUIRM

    JERMSQUIRM New Member

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    point taken mac. :wink:

    but to answer you Q. if i see another state pressuring on killing a tradition that involves me or my methods i think we reserve the right to speak in defense of it. after all if one state bans something due to pressure of another group its a matter of time before others do as well. the idea is to stop it at its begining. like i would debate gun control in another state due to not wanting to loose my gun rights as well.

    but you will find my demeioner has change this week. and the arguing is over. i am now on fact finding mission. and in the case of the NC section that i assume had a lot to do with this post:wink: i asked a few Q's last night about it. and also presented a response in your CCC defense about the leaving of gear unattended.

    and even told one said foe that a post of his was GREAT!. good post. but this is a open board. and ive already been down the road of folks thinking there state talk is off limits to others. but there not.

    theres some that dont want to see the rights of otheres taken. and voice up about them.
     
  12. kat in the hat

    kat in the hat New Member

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    That's me right there lmao. Lately, I read alot more than I post. Works out better for me that way. I don't really have any earth shattering insight to share anyways, or any real success stories so far this year. Works out better for me reading more than I post. That way Phil don't have as much of a chance to tear me down lol. :wink::smile2:
     
  13. Phil Washburn

    Phil Washburn New Member

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    7,680
    State:
    Shawnee OK

    i appreciate you giving me some rest, Matt:smile2:
     
  14. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

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    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    I just want to make sure I understand your position here. Let's say you are in a far off state from me, and you are discussing a proposed change to your Game Commission rules that would effect the lake or river you fish. Do you feel that is none of my business? I have nothing to add to your coversation that you have any use for? Hmmmm, I suppose the fact that my state may have instituted the same rule a few years back and we now see the results of that change, is of no value to you?

    See? I responded in the form of a debate, as you asked. Had I been of a nature to simply argue the point, I would have mentioned how arrogant you appear. It's your state and nobody else out of state could possibly have any info of value to you. I've done my best to follow Paul's rules on here. One rule is to not flame anyone. I certainly agree and hope I have never done so. So, should I chose to disagree with someone over a subject, any subject, anywhere, I follow Paul's rules. Should I decide to argue instead of debate, as long as I don't flame anyone, I'm free to do so. I don't need your "justification" of my presence or my contribution.
    That's what I would have said had I been of a nature to argue. I don't like that part of me, so I'll stick to the debate tactic. Is that ok with you?:wink:
     
  15. Phil Washburn

    Phil Washburn New Member

    Messages:
    7,680
    State:
    Shawnee OK

    Tom, see post number 3. you, like so many here, confuse bicker with argue. read those definitions carefully. when you and Mac refer to debate, you should actually be saying argue. argue is the most noble, and debate is much closer to bicker, which you are equating with argue. for petes sake, use the words that convey your meaning.

    if they mean one thing to you, and the dictionary says something different, which meaning should we who read your posts use?????
     
  16. JERMSQUIRM

    JERMSQUIRM New Member

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    13,145
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    il-waynesv
    well i know where the campfire is tonight,lol:smile2: ill be back later with the hot dogs. anyone like cheese in them? :big_smile:
     
  17. Kutter

    Kutter New Member

    Messages:
    5,379
    State:
    Arnold, MO
    Now Phil, have I ever given you cause to believe I would remember anything you said?:wink:

    Jeremy, I got fresh corn on the cob, tomatoes still on the vine as I type, cucumbers chilling in the ice box & the last of last falls venison in a crock pot. Later, after I finish fixing supper, I'll make some popcorn an share it with ya.
     
  18. rob128146

    rob128146 New Member

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    299
    State:
    Rockwell, North Carolina
    BIG MAC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You the man!! I agree and I too am guilty of some of the things that you said in your post and the other night letting my mouth override my a$$ in one thread. I should have never even got in that thread. Never the less it was about local concerns and I feel I went too far after it was over. After thinking about it I have not even opened the thread. I have sent I'm sorry's out to a few people and I walked away. I never meant for it to turn into a pissin' contest. I take 50% of the blame and it is over. Also if the guys I was talking to need anything I am just a few key strokes away. You know even family have little spats now and again but they are still family and I feel this way about our brothers and sisters on here also. :big_smile::big_smile:
     
  19. Catgirl

    Catgirl New Member

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    13,546
    Seems we all have issues......one (or some) of mine is/are what Tom mentioned, the part(s) of myself I don't like. I've made a few posts on the subject this thread is referring to recently, none of which made much sense probably. I let my madness :angry: override my sadness :sad2:, which is what I really feel regarding the bickering, arguing, debating, w/e you'd like to call it.....that's been going on recently in the NC forums.

    As far as which definition to use Phil, I say all of 'em. Each person is an individual, and most folks don't specifically choose one when responding to posts. So, in life, and especially here on the internet, you have to think ahead.....gotta remember that not EVERYONE's brain works the same way yours does. IMO, you have to take that into consideration regarding ANYTHING you post (not saying that I always do that :smile2:). BTW, not all folks keep a dictionary at their fingertips :wink: like you and I do Phil.

    Jeremy, I like cheese please.

    Tom, popcorn sounds good, but I want a movie also. I'm invitin' Mac too, he needs something to do after the CCC meeting. Arrogant would be one of the last words I'd use to describe the man. Read all the recent threads in the NC forums, and maybe you'll see what he's attempting to do/prevent.

    As far as I'm concerned, anyone is welcome in "our" forums as long as they have something constructive to say (as you discussed). I won't presume to speak for him though. He's quite capable of speaking for himself.

    Much as I love NC, as of late I've been considering moving to Illinois, Kentucky, maybe even Missouri :big_smile:.

    Love ya fellas. Can't we all just take a chill pill?
     
  20. JERMSQUIRM

    JERMSQUIRM New Member

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    il-waynesv
    cheese it is:wink:

    ya i probably have a lot to do with this thread lmao. but those who are following those threads will see that my posts have done a 360 from defending juggers with pitchforks to asking Q's and learning the differences in the laws from there and here.

    come on mac. say it. JEREMY STAY OUT OF OUR THREADS! :smile2:

    macs a good man. and i have learned alot lately in reading his posts and he was an influence in my changing directions here on the b.o.c for the better.:cool2:

    besides ive made a few friends over there. and am even being civil to wylie too now.