Hey gang, If you would like to save yourselves some hard earned dollars on a new muzzleloader. Check out www.cva.com and look at the bargin den. They offer new models in complete packages or they also have refurbished rifles at a fraction of the cost. I gave them a call about the refurbs and was told that generally they are returned overstock from dept and sporting goods stores. They also may have been used one time by an outdoor writer or television show host for field testing or promos and returned to the company and offered to the public. I bought one of the Optima refurbs and saved about $60.00 and it was recieved as new. I am well pleased and thought it was a great deal. Just wanted to share this with y'all.