Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Guns - Blackpowder' started by Gaspagoo, Aug 2, 2008.
What is the best gun,for shooting a deer 200 yrds away?
SAVAGE 110 .30-06 WITH 3-9X BUSHNELL SCOPE :big_smile: :cool2:
This listed rifle is intended to be matched with an experienced rifleman. The target will always prove or disprove the shooter knew what the point of impact would be after pressing the trigger because they knew the distance at the time the trigger is pressed or they didn't.
1) Large enough in caliber
2) Can maintain a 1-MOA group size with the shooter
3) Zeroed at known distance
4) Quality optics strong enough to confirm target and sight picture
5) In front of a good shooter that knows their equipment, where it hits other than zeroed distance
6) Not loaded with match ammunition
I personally shoot a Remington .308 LTR with a 4.5X14X50 Leupold with iluminated reticle. There are better ones out there but mine is multi purpose and i already own it and its paid for.
Ben,welcome to the BOC,Glad to have ya. The question you ask will get as many answers as Carter has liver pills:wink:,I believe there is no 'single gun' that is the best,I know there are a number of great calibers and makes of firearms. To me the best for the business is one that
First of all,"fits you"
lets you shoot comfortably at the bench ,as well as in the field,after all,if a big magnum makes you flinch chances aren't good that you will shoot it enough to be extremly accurate with it.
next I feel that the looks of a rifle have a bit to do with this as we all are a bit more confident with a rifle we love,sorta like an old dog.
Any caliber will do the job from a 243 up to the 45/70. I myself shoot a remington model 788 in 243,it was my first gun ever purchased and I've shot thousands or rounds through it ,I'm comfortable,confidant and familiar with it. anything inside 300 is in trouble .
Welcome Ben, i shoot a 270 with hand loads. Like 223 reload said, it's whatever you like best.
Boy, are you going to get a lot of diff answers. My own choices are the old
30-06 and 243 in either a Ruger or Remington bolt action or Ruger #1.
Anything from a .223 Remington to a .50 BMG will do the trick. Whatever is legal in where you're going to hunt at.
With me, I'd go with a bolt action 25-06 or 30-06 with a 3x9 scope.
Yep, like they said ,, what fits you best. Personally I shoot a 270 Winchester bolt action. At 200 i have virtually no drop and killed lots of deer at this range and up to 400. Just my 2 cents:confused2:
Whatever gun that's legal for deer in your area that you can shoot good consistent groups with at 200 yards gets the nod. That gives you PLENTY of calibers to choose from.
I agree 100% as this was the exact answer that I was thinking when I read the above post.
I love you Brothers and Sisters.peewee
I use a browning 270 a-bolt. This rifle has never let me down.
I prefer .270 Winchester, never lets me down. Good luck deciding..lol:smile2:
No matter what size rifle you choose, shot placement and safe use should always be at the top of mind set. If you have not gone to hunter safety class you may want to attend one.
One big consideration should be what you will hunt, how far is your targeted zone of operation. The best markesman in the world will tell you to practice and dont over estimate your ability.
I would ask that you never shoot over a ridge line. Always know where your round goes.
Many have suggested a rifle in .270 Win, I will tell you it is a fine round, and is an outstanding all around caliber that will serve you well.
I would suggest that you check the availability of ammo for your choice.Some of the exotics and magnums are expensive.
If you have good eyesight,many of the cheap military service rifles with open sights are excellent Deer rifles in my opinion and worked well for me.I enjoyed shooting them when I had my collection.Any rifle that was designed to kill a man will kill a Deer at 200 yards.
Back when they sold new for $100.00 and the softness ammo sold for less than .17-.25 cents a round,the SKS put many a poor man in the woods with a good 200 yard or less deer rifle.They are still taking many a deer.The .303 British Enfield and 7mm mauser has been used successfully to commercially hunt Elephant for Ivory.The surplus .303 Enfield and 7 mm Mauser has taken ALL African,North and South American game.The WW 1 Russian rifles have taken many a Moose,Polar Bear,Russian Brown (Grizzly) and Siberian Tiger.That is what the Russian peasant had to survive with in Siberia.The 6.5 Swede is still a popular Moose and Polar Bear rifle.They all are cheap to reload with the cheap "Lee Loader" kits and a few accessories.I often used them while my expensive presses set up and I got just as accurate ammo as my Hornady press,dies and accessories.You can carry the Lee Loader in a big coat pocket and set it up on a stump,rock or log.
30-06 and 30-30 center fire.12 and 20 gauge shotgun.22 rim fire.These have been the most available ammo any and everywhere in this country that I can remember in my 63 years.In the middle of nowhere,you can usually find someone in the woods,a pickup truck,farm or ranch house with one or more of these.If they don't have it,they will know someone who will.Also the cheapest as a rule year after year!
Think about it.
I love you Brothers and Sisters.
Many of the military rifles that are available are getting OLD and are not in the best condition. There bore can very greatly and I have seen .303 that were from .309 to .322 bore. A friend is a major collector of military weapons and has MANY MANY that will shoot sub MOA but he has paid a premium for them. Just for reference he just recieved, within the last 2 weeks, purchased a case of sequential numbered Mauser's with the SS ruin stamps on the guns and case. Of the case of 8 guns 3 would hit an 8 inch circle at 100yds from a Ransom Rifle Master Rest. Only one would punch a 3 inch 3 shot group at 100yds with factory loads.
The sales places are testing guns before selling them any more and charging more for the better guns.
I do offer a suggestion though. The NEF combos are hard to beat as you get a rifle and shotgun and they offer magnum barrels if you decide to go bigger. You can buy a ready combo in 30-06 and 12 gauge or 270 and 12 gauge among many other combos. As noted already you can get a single gun and send it in for other barrels for a very reasonable price. I have a 223 NEF that is a BLAST to shoot and i have done some bench shooting at 300 and 400yds with it. They also seem to prefer cheaper ammo. (?) My 223 shoots the cheaper ammo better than ANY of the top end ammo and even shoots some better than any top hand load I tried. my best group at 200yds with my loads is 1.45 inches for 5 shots and the yellow box Remington 45 grain I got put 5 in 1.1 inches twice in a row. A friends 25/06 put 5 core-lokt into a .53 hole at 150yds.
Another option is many 12 gauge shot guns offer rifled barrels and with most of the new 45 caliber sabot ammo they can shoot well to 250yds.
if you already have a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 you can just buy a barrel. If you do and want a scope ( I have a 4 power cross bow scope on mine. It has a circle in the recticel that if the average deer fills the circle top of back to belly he is within range) get a barrel with a cantilever mount so you can swap the barrels without having to change the scope and re zero.
What is "Cross Bow" range?
They have suppose to and have been checking out the guns for many years now.They have always charged more for the better rated guns.They were doing this when I bought my first surplus WW1 Anti-Tank Rifle from Bannarman in the early 50's.I personally know that they have been rating them for 50+ years!
All used guns and all guns should be checked out for head space and other safety related things by a gunsmith periodically if you do not have the ability and the equipment to do so.
I agree on the bores.I have also seen Winchesters and Remington's hunting rifles of that age ara in 30-30 and 30-06 with barrels measuring what you have seen in a .303 Enfield.I am sorry that your friend got riped off with the case of guns,but you find such in many used hunting rifles folks took no care of.The majority of military rifles of that era would not put 3 in 3 inches.Far more would put 3 in 4 inches or larger.There is a lot of reported fraud in such weapons as your "Major collector" friend bought and many "experts"have been ripped off from what I have read.
I had a new "Irish" Enfield out of the last made.It had only been shot to proof test and sight in as all Enfields were.I also had a 1945 Lithgow Arsenal rebuild in a 1943 stock with a set of teeth marks in the stock.Brand new steel in a battle scared but sound stock.I had the same in Spanish,Swede,Finnish and Russian rifles.And not to forget my 30-06 1917 Enfield.No collector,but a rifle made of all brand new unissured parts that had been stored in the desert.These were old,but new weapons for all practical purposes.If you ran out of ammo and broke off your Bayonet in a charging Elephant or Rhino,you could still beat it to death with the stock of that 1917 Enfield!It is built like a live oak tree!
I had a bolt action 30-30 Carbine that had been toted much and banged around,yet the bore and mechanics were in beautiful shape.Operated and shot like a charm.
I too like the NEF rifles and Shotguns.I liked mine,but I never got the Bench Rest accuracy you and your friend got.I had to pay thousands to get such accuracy like most other folk.With this kind of accuracy,It looks like people would be showing up at matches competing with them and that NEF would be advertising such.To get 5 shots within .273 of dead center is awesome even for a locked down barrel.For a man to shoot such with a NEF,WOW!
What is your friends name?A skill such as this is achieved with years of help and training by skilled experts who compete.Any Joe Blow just don't pick up the most accurate rifle ever made and learn to shoot like this on their own.I would like to look them up and see their standing.
I just wish that I could shoot what my rifles could when I had them.I was never as good as the best,but some of the best told me that I was good.I am proud of that as they surly knew what they were talking about.I do love to watch folk shoot and it has been a privilege to see the few that I have!
Many folks in my youth hunted with military surplus rifles.This was all that they could afford!They hunted with the rifles that they served with and were familiar with.They did well with them.Some had lived with these rifles 24 hours a day for years during the wars.
I love you Brothers and Sisters.peewee
The CROSS BOW scope circle indicates an average sized deer is within 100yds. I got the idea of using it on the shotgun after reading an article where a magazine used them on a 30/30. If the deers heart lung area fill the circle it is within 50yds for the cross bow. This works in the same way that a golf range finder can roughly estimate the distance of a deer as an average sized deer is roughly the same height as the regulation flag on a green.
As for the military rifles. Regulation changes in the last 3 years have changed the WHOLE importing game by raising costs, and while they have graded rifles for a long time not many would do a performance test. Good Shooting grade guns have more than doubled and in some instanced tripled in price. Also with some of the older calibers you should avoid using new manufacture ammo as the pressures are higher than the old guns are made for.
Also to consider is that the ammo for some military weapons is not normal mfg run and as such brings a premium, also some of the surplus ammo is only available in FMJ which in many areas is not a legal hunting round.
Some of the best shooting "normal" military weapons he has in his collection were purchased at pawn shops and shows that were bring backs form the war, you can still find them and get a good deal on them. The Special sets like the crated set he bought are worth MUCH more as the are than they would EVER be as a shooting gun.
The person that owns the 25/06 is a trained shooter and has shot military competition. The example was more toward what they can do. As for modern production rifles with out of sized bores you should contact the mfg if they are that far out as there was a huge production error somewhere and they would more than likley want them back as the std is 1-3 thousandths NOT tenths.
As for benchrest accuracy, It is not even close. You are speaking of 4-5 inch groups at 1000 yds, the world record is a incredible 1.59 inches at 1000 yds, and 1 inch groups at 600 yds. Here are the incredible records: http://www.international-benchrest.com/recordposters/IBS Records Poster Long Range 11_17.pdf
I am questioning you to find out as much as I can.I do have questions and you have been giving answers that would lead me to believe that you are a knowledgeable person about these things.Some of your answers have raised questions.
Some of the ammo statements work in reverse as many Commercial loads are quite low in pressure because of the wide range of firearms available to the shooter.As a reloader,I keep up with and Taylor my loads to the individual firearm and use.
Thanks for the info on the crossbow scope.I was wondering why someone would use a scope with the Parallax set for 50 yards like on a .22 rim fire scope.As long as you shot at 50 yards,you view would not be distorted.Now the person asked about guns to 200 yards which is 4 times farther and would make a difference with the scope set for 50 yards.I would think it a excellent idea for a smooth bore shotgun with buckshot or slugs and a bead sight.For the far reaching rifled shotguns,it would seem a hindrance.
As for the grading and "performance test".You best not get caught cheating on the grading,or you will have broken the law and most likely have the NRA suing you if you are using their standards and lieing about them to the public.
I also know that such Guns as you mentioned in cased lots are very valuable IF they are what they claim to be.The very fact that they are of such poor quality in the accuracy department is a red flag to check for fraud.Only the highest quality and accuracy were allowed to be stamped as you said these were,yet these rifles are far below the accuracy standard for the average rifle of the time and would have been rejected would they not?Why weren't these rejected at the armory?I would think that the Fuhrer would have had the inspector executed.If these are truly the real thing,then they are truly a very rare find and extremely rare.I doubt if very many rejects like this got by.I would love to see all of the markings on the guns.One thing for sure.The inspector would surly have been executed if someone had fired those rifles and discovered the quality.Good thing that they staid in the case was it not?
I am 63.The frauds of the past that fooled many "Experts" are the reason I question all such finds.
The bore sizes I talked about were for military and civilian rifles that had been neglected,shot out and/or abused.No new or refurnished .303 British or Australian Enfield ever left the Arsenal with a barrel such as you described.The inspector would have to be a traitor and would be caught the first time someone tried to hit anything with it.Someone somewhere may have put a discarded scrap or shot out barrel on it,but it did not come from the arsenal that way.011" overbore has never been acceptable in a cartridge rifle anywhere anytime that a man has shoulder fired. Now I have no idea of the quality of India's rifles.
I personally have never seen a "Sporting" Rifle come new from any factory that far over bored either.You would have to patch the projectile to hit the broadside of a barn.
As the accurate use of Micrometers was part of my trade and job for 47 years,I well understand the difference in tenths and thousands.
I am also and have been a follower of the shooting sports at times,and know what they shoot.That is why I asked for the name of the shooter.The ones who can shoot,do not have to brag.The world knows them for who and what they are.As you well know,there are far more claims of far better shooting than any who have ever competed have ever managed to do.I do believe that there have been far more claimed "Snipers" on the internet than the armed forces of the world have ever trained or deployed.These internet experts all share two things in common.They all talk and brag about their expertise yet all are very quiet and bashful about who they are.I know of no way to judge a shooter long distance other than by their name,no matter how good they are or are not on line.
I do believe that to group any 5 shots within .273 of center with a NEF production firearm is phenomenal and what others have done in the record books with very expensive rifles made for such shooting has nothing what so ever to do with each other.Only the shooters shooting record could tell anyone anything about his expertise in my and others beliefs.This is why I asked for the name.This is the first that I have heard of such and so far I can find no one else who has heard of such.NEF certainly would love to hear of it but so far I have found no one.
It carries far more weight to be able to tell folks that a known shooter is claiming such than having to say that some unknown shooter is claiming so and so.This is why I asked.
I love you Brothers and Sisters.peewee
Under stand 150%. I do have a question for you since you do have some knowledge in military weapons. my friend the collector, He bought several guns from an older lady whos husband had passed on. In the bunch is a rifle that we have YET to find ANY Information on. There are NO markings on it other than the German word for test the date 1941 and the SS ruins. the gun seems to be a copy of a Krag but is chambered in 8mm. We had to cast the chamber to verify it but is is a dead to spec chamber for an 8mm and the barrel has VERY good rifling and the bolt looks more like a Mauser. If you view it from the left it looks like a Mauser but from the right it has the Krag trap door on the side. The wood on it is typical WWII fare.
Like I noted we have been able to find next to nothing about it but several people that have seen it believe it to either be an ammunition test rifle or a prototype. We took it to DOW Gun room and spoke with Bruce about it and he verified that the parts were a mix of almost std production parts from a Mauser and copied parts from a Krag.
The odd thing is it has neither sites or a scope mount point on it. I will see if I can get ahold of him and get some pictures.
I Really liked your comment about 'More snipers here than the military ever trained" I agree. I know of a "Vietnam Sniper" that would have been about 16 at the end of the war.