Be careful what you sign

Discussion in 'Trapping & Fur Taking' started by 223Smitty, Jul 30, 2006.

  1. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    With another recent post here in which trappers rights were mentioned, as well as another petition floating around got me thinking.....which is the reason of this post.

    There's been a recent petition floating around on darting deer for sport. Matter of fact, I'll paste it, but am removing the link:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    *edited* is condemning the World Hunting Association, (WHA), and the “non-lethal” deer darting tournament they intend to put on. It can be found at *link edited*
    We believe this violates fair chase principles, as well as assaults the ethical, humane hunt that all hunters strive to achieve.


    I encourage all hunters to sign this petition, making known to David Farbman, and any potential sponsors, as well as all outdoor marketers, outdoor manufacturers, outdoor publications and writers, that we very strongly oppose the so called World Hunting Association, the pathetic “tournament” they plan to put on, inside a high fence area, tranquilizing white-tailed deer for scoring, and the assault we feel this incurs on our valued tradition and heritage of hunting.

    Please contact all friends, hunting partners, outdoor publications, gear manufacturers, hunting forums, etc., who would like to add their names, and support to this noble cause.

    Thank you.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I hope what I am going to say isn't misunderstood. I don't think we as outdoorsmen & women should be pursuaded into signing any petition that infringes on another's outdoor sports rights, whether it is something we ourselves participate in or not.

    I'm not much of a hunter myself, but wouldn't support this petition (lol, which if you read is "non-lethal"), one to ban "canned hunts",or any other one that would restrict the rights of another outdoorsman to engage in a sport deemed as "legal" by the state.

    My main focus of this post isn't the petition I posted above, I merely used it as an example. My point however is, what I've said more times than once....we need to support one another. A hunters rights lost today, will be a trappers or fishermans rights lost tomorrow.

    Many of these petitions are just a way to get a "foot in the door" for the antis inorder to have bills passed to take away our rights. Just because we don't "agree" with something, or aren't a participant of the sport, doesn't mean it isn't another persons passion.

    Personally, I'd never "dart" a deer, or hunt a fenced-hunt, but I won't do anything either to take the right away from someone who wants to. We live in a world of "alternative motives"......and all I wanted to say is to exersize caution & think of the reprocussions when presented with petitions like this one.

    I hope I got my point across clearly....lol, sometimes my brain & fingers don't always connect. :crazy:

    Any thoughts or input?

    Smitty
     
  2. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,296
    State:
    Kentucky
    Id sign it in a heartbeat, drugging deer doesnt sound too sporting to me. I signed a petition not long ago about people wanting to trap and sell live coyotes so people could let their dogs tear them up, yeah real sporting activity there too. My stepfather started the petition and worked hard to get this cancelled, money won though just like always.

    If sportsman dont stand up for what they think is right, peta and other nuts will see us all like that. Fair chase for me. I dont want to be put into the same group as them or the coyote-dog fighters. Maybe better advice would be to find out who started the petition in the first place and who it is sent to.
     

  3. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    Brian....this will have to be one of those areas where we'll have to "agree to disagree", but you may find you're signing away your own rights. And I hope I'm wrong my friend.

    Ever see roadkill? Maybe we should ban cars? Ever shoot a deer from a treestand? Wouldn't being eye-level with a deer more "fair"?

    I guess we have a difference of opinion in that I'm concerned about others rights, not just my own.



    Jim- These deer aren't killed, only darted.
     
  4. Dreadnaught

    Dreadnaught New Member

    Messages:
    5,444
    State:
    Henderson,Ky
    Yaeh, I can see it now!!! Deer with drug habits, robbing squirrels of their winter stash to buy more drugs. Then we will have drug crazed Deer charging people in parks. I don't think I would want to eat any venison that has had a tranquilizer in it's system. JMO!!!
     
  5. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,296
    State:
    Kentucky
    I wouldnt consider darting deer in a fenced area a sport, much less hunting. If you do thats you, no biggie I just dont want to help out with that. Like you said I disagree, strongly. Why dont they just dart themselves and see whos left standing.:lol:

    Are we not supposed to ever sign any petition??? :crazy: Or should we find out who started it and go from there. Sorry dude, but I like to think for myself.
     
  6. catseeman

    catseeman New Member

    Messages:
    1,189
    State:
    Indianapolis, Indiana
    I don't agree that this is anymore sport than dogfighting.If they want to play hunt let them do it with out the animals. Or let them use photo graphic equipment. I do agree with fenced hunts as long as the animals are raised for that purpose , but not repeatly drugged. Let them use verturial deer for play.To me Killing an animal for sport and useing the animal for food is a lot different than drugging it for fun.. To me druging a deer for sport is not sport. I could not support it any way shape or form.
     
  7. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    I thinkyou may very well may have misunderstood my point, please re-read my initial post. Please don't "twist" what I've said into something I didn't.

    I also stated I seen no "sport" in canned hunts, nor darting deer......but yours & my opinions aren't the only ones that count......evidently some others do find some sort of sporting "value" in it. If the state deems it as legal, then how am I to say.

    My only "support" in any of this is to "support" the rights of others. The whole point of this post, which I am aware is a bit controversial, was to see how others felt about it.

    It's funny (not "funny" haha), but being a trapper, my sport is one of the more "looked-down-upon" ones you'll find, because of the image given to us by others. I have yet to see more than 1 trapper support a petitions taking away the rights of another.

    You're able to sign anything you like & think as you like. As we sportmen continue to lose more rights, maybe it'll hit closer to home & you'll understand the point I'm attempting to make.

    Smitty
     
  8. FishMan

    FishMan New Member

    Messages:
    2,293
    State:
    Tennessee
    catch and release fishing

    hunt and release deer hunting....why not.....I for one don't see any harm in not killing a deer. We still have plenty of hunters that will fill their deer tags....If it happens we might learn something.

    Maybe I don't understand something here. I know you are a trapper but how could people not killing deer hurt your trapping. There is no way this could replace deer hunting. Deer hunting must happen, heck we have 1,000,000 deer in Tennessee alone. Hunting is how we controll them, if we didn't you would have a hard time driving around where I live.
     
  9. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,296
    State:
    Kentucky
    Just curious what rights have we lost? I oppose darting deer not just because I dont see it as sporting or hunting, I can also see the problems that can come up such as disease and one of these deer getting loose and doing damage to a herd. What about the rights of hunters to not worry about a deer being drugged from one of these places that has escaped.

    One persons rights end when it infringes on anothers.
     
  10. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    Danny, not killing a deer has nothing to do with a trappers rights. Agreeing to ban anothers rights to do so, simply because one doesn't agree with it does. My point wasn't about this petition specifically, it was about our rights, and keeping them.

    Smitty
     
  11. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,296
    State:
    Kentucky
    When you said one hunters rights are denied it may be the loss of anothers later. That to me meant you consider them to be hunters, so thats where that post came from. I did read your initial post.

    My stepfather helps run the trapping college in Indiana for FTA, Fur Takers of America. He started the petition against live coyote selling. It was supported by quite a few local trappers and the local federal game warden, also a trapper. It did mean more money for trappers but many seen past the quick buck. He and many others still wont sell live coyotes to be torn apart for the enjoyment of others.

    Was this petition(your example) formed by PETA in an attempt to squash hunting, trapping, and fishing??? Serious question.

    Sometimes as sportsmen we need to look after our own image. Like I said I dont want to be associated with darting and high fences. Maybe the general public can see the difference between sportsmen and men darting deer. If we dont stand up for what we think is sporting they just lump us all together and will think the worst of all of us.
     
  12. FishMan

    FishMan New Member

    Messages:
    2,293
    State:
    Tennessee
    Brian: I got that and very much agree. It looks to me like these people or groups would come to the hunters and fisherman and learn what is going on before they come up with their hair brained ideas. Some of the thing they want could cause many problems and billions of dollars. They may attend school for many years but when they try to make changes because of what they think, well let's just say Thats Stupid so that makes them stupid.
     
  13. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    Do you think no sporstman across the country has lost any rights over the years? You think PEAT & other AR groups have had no effect on hunting/fishing/trapping? Or having a treehugger in office to pass bills? You're missing the whole point. Your rights won't be lost all at once....it's alittle here & alittle there, before you know it, they're gone, and by then it'll be too late.

    I can't see any "disease" problem you mention, but again, I'm not much of a hunter, and it's small game at that. How could a drugged deer (nearly imobilized) escape? There are all sorts of "if's" in the world.....what if your vehicle blew a tire & caused a serious accident on the way to deerhunting? Would it be the tires fault, the vehicle, some debris in the roadway, or the fact that you hunt?

    You mentioned trapping coyotes for the live-market earlier. I was going to do it myself, built the cages, had a buyer & all.....but I couldn't do it. It went against my beliefs. I could have more than doubled (closer to tripled) the money I get for coyote when sold for fur. When it came down to it, I couldn't.....but just because I won't, doesn't mean I should stop someone else from doing it. I'm actually suprised three aren't any houndsmen here, as they are another group who continually has to fight for their rights.

    How would someone chosing to dart deer "infringe" on your rights?

    Smitty
     
  14. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    If the state recgonizes them as "hunters", I'd imagine they are required to purchase a license, so I just chose that term. It's not my place to call them any different, as I'd think it'd take the same level of marksmanship to hit a deer be it a bullet or dart.

    As far as the petion, much like anything else on the internet, we may never know it's true point of origin. I don't have any "first-hand" experience with these pens, for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. I have however read that they are regulated, and have areas where coyotes can "hole-up", I have no validity in this though. Again, it is something I have no interest myself, though have a few trapping buddies who sell live-market coyote & fox. Many things like this I just choose to stay "neutral" in, I won't support them, but won't be a part of taking away the rights of another either.

    I certainly understand your point in not wanting to be "lumped-in" with those that participate in things like this, and I am the same way (lol, read some of my old posts). I would however take my chances with that, as opposed to losing my rights. If you hunt, you're a "killer", same as if you trap. I suppose to some, those who fish are as well.

    It's all about freedom of choice.....if someone wants to drive a gas-guzzeling 10,000 lb. SUV...are they helping you or me by driving up gas prices? No, but it's within their right to do so.

    Smitty
     
  15. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,296
    State:
    Kentucky
    How about some examples for the lost rights of others? Like I said doesnt the general hunting public have the right to not worry about an infected deer from darting getting loose in their herd. Couldnt the deer keep the drug in them for more that a day, then get loose. Maybe you should read my posts, an infected or drugged deer could easily harm free herds.

    Disease wasnt a problem up north due to baiting until they had to wipe out whole herds to get rid of CWD, its still not gone. High fences have spread disease before, Bellingers(sp?) in Indiana, they also drugged their deer.

    I guess its not a problem there since it hasnt happened yet. Who cares about the consequences of our actions, as long as someone is making a buck. Since we're doing what if's. What if someone thinks they have the right to kick your dog. I mean its their right, right?

    Oh, and what if, the petition was to actually stop this crap from happening. If you want to allow that sort of thing thats you. But I stand up for what I dont agree with, people dont have the right to torture animals. To me, drugging an animal over and over for some ^%$$^% entertainment is torture. There are already laws in place about torturing animals.

    Like you said earlier, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
     
  16. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    They don't want to do that Danny because it would expose them for what they are.....extremely misinformed whackos. There are some states which have banned different types of traps (say with the exception of cagetraps), basically to the point of getting rid of trapping altogether. Some of these states have had hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage done by beaver alone, then had to pay to have the problem resolved.....something the trappers were doing for free, as well as adding state revenues with buying their trapping licenses.

    Smitty
     
  17. hoosier angler

    hoosier angler New Member

    Messages:
    63
    State:
    Arizona
    Food for thought!
    1. They start out darting deer , no harm done right.
    2. Oh now lets try darting deer with contrceptives to of course control the deer herd population. We know it works right.We already done it in that tournement.
    We won't need hunters to harvest and control the herd anymore.
    3. Now since we have darted the deer in a high fence area, measured, recorded data, and maybe even implanted telemitry devices?
    4. We can now advertise "Old Monarch of the North" 210 Boone and Crocket points 280 lbs as of last season,for sale on ebay goes to the highest bidder.

    I have not read all of the posts' and I don't know what "The Petition" is about but this kind of stuff can snowball out of control. Remember The assault weapons ban. It is gone now for a good reason it did nothing to stop crime. If it had it would still be here. It was all about polititions doing some feel good BS. I do know this we (outdoorsmen) need to stick together. Giving away one groups rights is just the begining to the end of all of our rights. I don't think any high fence hunt is ethical. What is ethical to one may not be to another. My point is, think about everyone long and hard before you sign something to make a change. P.S. I didn't mean to hijack your post.
     
  18. FishMan

    FishMan New Member

    Messages:
    2,293
    State:
    Tennessee
    It seems like we don't win in one way or another, I mean if we stop the darting program then we have stoped someone from doing as they wish on their own property so it then becomes a property rights issue.

    We need less law and more rules that provide punishment for being stupid. what works should not be what someone thinks, it should be what is now healthy for the animals and enviorment that can be seen by just looking.

    On this K 9 issue is it not ileagle to provide K 9s for fighting.
     
  19. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    I'm sure you can easily find more by soing a search.........

    State Trapping Bans
    • Washington (2000 ballot initiative)—Citizens voted in favor (55%) of banning the use of leghold traps, other body-gripping traps, and snares for recreation and commerce in fur. In May 2003, the governor vetoed a rollback of the ban.
    • California (1998 ballot initiative)—Voters supported (57%) Proposition 4, which banned the use of leghold traps, other body-gripping traps, and snares for recreation and commerce in fur. <<p>
    • Massachusetts (1996 ballot initiative)—Voters passed (64%) The Wildlife Protection Act, banning the use of leghold traps, other body-gripping traps, and snares for capturing fur-bearing animals.
    • Colorado (1992 ballot initiative)—Citizens voted in favor (52%) of a constitutional amendment banning the use of leghold, other body-griping traps and snares.
    • Arizona (1992 ballot initiative)—Voters (58%) enacted a ban on the use of leghold traps, other body-gripping traps, and snares on public land—which makes up 80% of the state.
    • New Jersey (1986 legislation)—The New Jersey legislature banned both possession and use of leghold traps, making it the most restrictive of the leghold trap bans.
    • Rhode Island (1977 legislation)—Rhode Island legislators banned the use of the leghold trap to capture any animal.
    • Florida (1974 regulation)—The Florida Fish and Game Commission enacted a regulation prohibiting the use of any steel or leghold trap where wildlife might be found.
    City Trapping Bans
    • Columbia, Maryland (2003 city ordinance)—The city council unanimously voted to ban leghold traps.
    • Nashua, New Hampshire (1994 city ordinance)—The city council passed a ban on the use of leghold traps and other body-gripping traps and snares.
    • Two Harbors, Minnesota (1990 city ordinance)—The city council voted to ban the leghold trap throughout most of the city.
    • St. Paul, Minnesota (1985 city ordinance)—The city council unanimously voted to ban all lethal trapping and the sale of all lethal traps.
    ----------------------------------

    http://www.cleveland.com/sun/sunstar/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1152204074263110.xml&coll=3

    http://www.outdoorlife.com/outdoor/news/snapshots/article/0,19912,1033435,00.html

    You make it sound as there's no disease in "natural" wildlife. As far as how long drugs can remain in a deers system, got no idea as I'm not a biologist, and anything similar. How long can it remain?

    You asked about someone "kicking a dog", then later you mention animal cruelty laws.....you answered your own question.

    Again, you're missing the whole intent of this post. You're trying to make it sound that I favor this sort of thing, and that just isn't the case. I just think it's unfair to decide what sport another person can or can't participate in because of your personal prefferences. I guess since I don't deer hunt, if there's a petition floating around to ban it, I guess it'd be OK to sign it? After all....it isn't something I personally enjoy..........

    Smitty
     
  20. 223Smitty

    223Smitty New Member

    Messages:
    478
    State:
    Indiana
    lol....this state takes in too much revenue involving deer hunting to "spend" money for deer birth control.

    We can all speculate about all sorts of things, and the "coulda, shoulda, wouldas". Bottom line is, when it comes to the topic of any posibillity of fueling the fire of sportsmen & women losing their rights....any rights, I'll lean towards the side of being overly cautious. And I agree about watching what you choose to change, because it can backfire.

    You didn't hijack anything, your input is appriciated as is everyone elses. lol, I was just tryin' to start a discussion.....not a whizzin' match :big_smile:

    Smitty