Backyard knot/line test

Discussion in 'Fishing Line Review' started by BKS72, Aug 15, 2008.

  1. BKS72

    BKS72 New Member

    Messages:
    3,361
    State:
    East of KC
    I was wondering about knot slippage when tying snells in braided line. On another thread a brother mentioned that he ties snells in braid and it holds fine. My knot tying abilities aren't the best, so I decided to play around with it a bit before I use it on the water.

    I use 200# PowerPro braid for a leader lately, so that was my first test. I tied a snell on a Gamakatsu 8/0 circle with a swivel on the other end. Typical leader length piece of line, around 18". The snell popped at around 40#. It didn't slip, but the line broke at the knot. No doubt issues with my knot tying abilities.

    Next I tied a double palomar (just running a loop twice through the eye before tying) and did the same thing. I straightened the hook at around 70# of pull.

    Then I tied the leader to a piece of my main line (80# PowerPro) and did the same thing, using a double palomar at every knot. The main line broke consistently in the high 40's or low 50's, away from the knot. I don't know if it was old line, nicks, or what, but I used line from both the end of the reel and from 10' or so up from where the leader had been tied on. I tested it on pieces of line from two different reels spooled from two different rolls and colors of line. Not a very scientific test, but I was a bit worried about it.

    So then I put one of the rigs in a rod holder on the boat and tied a swivel on the end of the line. I tightened the drag down as tight as I could get it (A-G 6600CB reel) and hooked the scale to the swivel and started pulling. Most resistance I could get was just shy of 7#. Now I'm feeling much better because even thumbing the spool I'm not going to get close to 50# of resistance.

    Next I did the same setup on an A-G 7000 reel to see how much resistance I had. The 7000 came in at around 14# of drag with it locked down.

    I tried this with jerking on the scale to simulate a hard hit as well as a slow pull and there were no major variations on either method.

    So what I learned (other than my neighbors now think I'm weirder than ever judging by the looks they were giving me while I was pulling on a scale until hooks and swivels went flying like shrapnel) is that:

    1. I'm bad at tying new knots.
    2. Unless I have some really bad luck (line dug into spool, gets wrapped around the end of the rod, fish gets me snagged in rocks, etc) I'd have a hard time getting enough resistance on my end of the line to break off a fish.
    3. No worries on my rods breaking unless I try to do something really stupid like pick up a big fish with the rod and swing him in the boat.

    The reels were all stock reels with the exception of carbon fiber drag washers installed in the 6600.

    Now that I feel I've done something constructive, I'm gonna go catch bait and hopefully get to test out my conclusions on a big ol' fish:big_smile:
     
  2. bluejay

    bluejay Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,493
    State:
    Napoleon, Mo.
    Good post Branden. Thanks for the info.
     

  3. john catfish young

    john catfish young New Member

    Messages:
    3,070
    State:
    Kentucky
    Sounds like some good ideas! I'll have to try some similar tests on my equip.:big_smile:
     
  4. BKS72

    BKS72 New Member

    Messages:
    3,361
    State:
    East of KC
    I should clarify that I have no doubts about a properly tied snell holding - the issue with the snelled line breaking is almost certainly a function of me tying the knot badly or incorrectly. There was no slippage at all, just a break where I probably cinched it down at the gap in the eye or just flat-out didn't follow the instructions on how to tie the knot:big_smile:

    The point would be moot anyway under normal conditions since the knot held to very close to the average breaking strenght of my main line:wink:
     
  5. GaryF

    GaryF New Member

    Messages:
    3,649
    State:
    O.P., KS
    Wow, Brandon, what a waste of a lot of good time. Sounds like something I would do: http://www.catfish1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=285332&postcount=39 :wink:

    I did some line / knot strength tests at one point too, can't remember if I posted it, but what I remember is that with 100lb PowerPro, every test ended with a break off at the knot at between 35 and 55 pounds of force. I tried several knots, including a palomar - my normal braid knot, but I don't believe I tried a double palomar. There was no hook in my tests, so I didn't try a snell knot.

    Bottom line was that even with the diminished strength at the knots, it was still plenty strong enough. And drag strengths of over 22lbs seemed to become counterproductive with braid, as it caused the line to start to undercut itself on the spool.
     
  6. Ghosth

    Ghosth New Member

    Messages:
    241
    State:
    North Dakota
    Now I'll probably light a few fires here, which is not really my intention. And I may regret lighting those fires down the road, but I really feel like I have to say this.

    Ok so you tied your knots, set your pole in the holder, set the drag as tight as you could, and got 7 & 14 lbs on the scale, correct?

    So why do you need 50lb test line?


    Seems to me you could do the same thing, with 15 or 20 lb test. Your reel will hold twice as much line. Use the same knots, same techniques, same everything.

    Granted, you might lose a fish now and then. And yes if you fish heavy cover I can see why you use heavier tackle.
    But using a lighter line giving the fish at least a bit more of a sporting chance?

    Now I know most of you will read this and call me a crackpot, or whatever. Ok, I'm not starving, I don't need every fish I catch. If you are then by all means, stand fast.
    But think about giving those fish we all love just a little bit more of a sporting chance. Do you need to boat every fish?
    Or are you fishing because you love the challenge?

    After all, if you do lose that monster, will you ever forget it?
    You got to outsmart him, hook him, and hopefully get him up to get a good look at him. He got to get away to grow bigger, wiser. Didn't you both go away happy?
     
  7. BKS72

    BKS72 New Member

    Messages:
    3,361
    State:
    East of KC
    Hah - it's amazing how a "hmmmm, I wonder..." thought can turn into a couple of hours of a day down the tubes - glad I'm not the only one that does that:smile2:

    Off subject, but how has that 220 GTO working out? I may upgrade gear this winter and I can't decide between A-G 7000's and the GTO's.
     
  8. Baitkiller

    Baitkiller New Member

    Messages:
    1,029
    State:
    Akron, Ohio
    With Braid I had OPERATOR PROBLEMS tying knots and them holding up to the break points that I would like to have seen!!

    That was till I used "KRAZY GLUE" just before I snugged them up.

    :tounge_out:
     
  9. GaryF

    GaryF New Member

    Messages:
    3,649
    State:
    O.P., KS
    Just fine, you can borrow one for awhile if you want to try it out. They were the main bang around bank fishing reels I used the last couple of years. The stainless steel and carbon shell shake off abuse that would scratch the heck out of an aluminum reel, and I've had zero problems.
     
  10. BKS72

    BKS72 New Member

    Messages:
    3,361
    State:
    East of KC
    Cool, thanks, I might take you up on that - they're shiny and chromy, if they work good that's just a plus:smile2:

    Dave, the reason I use braid for a leader is just because I'm lazy and it's handy. I typically just tie a swivel to the end of my main line, cut it off 18" above my swivel, turn it around, and tie it on for my leader:smile2: I went to the 200# because I happen to have a spool left that's too short to fill a reel and so I decided to put it to use for leader material. More abrasion resistant than my 80# main line.

    I would use mono, but I don't like to tie knots in heavy mono and I don't really see that short of a piece providing much shock absorbing value. That's what the soft end of the Ugly Stik Tiger is for:wink:
     
  11. GaryF

    GaryF New Member

    Messages:
    3,649
    State:
    O.P., KS
    I'm guessing you don't use braid, 20lb test is the same diameter as 4lb mono, and gives you very little abrasion resistance. 65lb braid is about the minimum I will use for river fishing for big cats.

    Unneeded capacity for the most part.

    Breaking a fish off and leaving him trailing a hook and line isn't so great, nor is a long fight that takes him to exhaustion. In some of the current we fish you would be doing well to get a dead 50lb fish to the boat on 20lb line, seriously.

    Got no problem with the question, I kept the answers short because I have to run :wink:
     
  12. john catfish young

    john catfish young New Member

    Messages:
    3,070
    State:
    Kentucky
    We mostly fish in Lakes without much current in the spring- fall months for Flatheads and 20 lb is about all we use. We haven't lost any good fish yet due to the 20 lb mono. We have caught many over 50 and I landed one this spring that weighed 67.2 lbs.
    Now in the winter months we move our location to the main river channel and get a bit more current and change up our strategies to fish for large river Bluecats. Last year I landed a 47.9 lb Bluecat on 20 lb test....but everytime I pulled on the rod to pump him in.....you could here the 20 singin like a guitar string about ready to pop. It is very snaggy fishing from the bank and heavy lines are very hard to break. I will probably step up to 30 or 40 lb mono for this type of fishing. I'm still looking at different ways of rigging up and hope to land an even bigger fish or two this year. The knots I prefer are the palomar's for all mono lines. I have much back-yard testing to do yet!!!:big_smile:
     
  13. BKS72

    BKS72 New Member

    Messages:
    3,361
    State:
    East of KC
    Bill, sorry, for some reason I honestly didn't see your post when I looked at that page and answered Gary- I dunno if it was a site thing or what..:eek:oooh:

    Yes, you're right, I could probably do in a lot of cases what I'm doing with 20# mono with a few more lost fish, but I hate mono - the stretch drives me nuts. And like Gary said, to step down to the smaller diameter braids is like fishing with sewing thread, not good around all the rip-rap on the banks.

    And no, I don't need to see them all, but I also don't need the aggravation of wondering how big a fish like the one in my avatar would have been had I had the right gear to get them in:smile2: Fish of a lifetime don't come around every day and luck favors the prepared:wink: I hit him in pretty decent current (around 3MPH) and believe me, I wouldn't have landed him on anything lighter.

    I figure I'm being a bit sporting already - relatively light rods (Tiger M/H) and reels (A-G 6600) and my net man most of the time weighs less than any fish I need the net for. :big_smile:

    No hard feelings at all on my part - one of the reasons I'm still running the gear listed above is that it's about as light as I'll go with a decent chance of boating big fish in current but still keeping it fun when we hit average fish. :big_smile:
     
  14. CountryHart

    CountryHart New Member

    Messages:
    10,914
    State:
    missouri
    Correct me if i'm wrong but your post almost sounds as if your an advocate of big fish swimmin off with big hooks buried in their jaw?:confused2:
     
  15. GaryF

    GaryF New Member

    Messages:
    3,649
    State:
    O.P., KS
    Ditto here, I didn't see it there at first either.
     
  16. BKS72

    BKS72 New Member

    Messages:
    3,361
    State:
    East of KC
    Bill, I should clarify, they all go back in the water, with the exception of a 3# flathead who somehow gut hooked himself with an 8/0 Gama circle on a bluegill and a 6# blue that's soaking in the fridge now. :wink: As Gary alluded to, I want them in the boat and released not totally wore out.

    Gary can testify to the challenge part, he watched a 49# blue work me like a dog for about 20 minutes in decent current this summer out in his boat:smile2:

    Great questions!
     
  17. john catfish young

    john catfish young New Member

    Messages:
    3,070
    State:
    Kentucky
    There is no worse feeling in the world to me than to lose a really nice fish. That is why knots and line must be top of the line stuff.:big_smile:
     
  18. GaryF

    GaryF New Member

    Messages:
    3,649
    State:
    O.P., KS
    Yeah I can, and Brandon kind of "ups the bar" in favor of the fish by only having about 1/3 spool of line on his reels sometimes :smile2:
     
  19. crazy

    crazy New Member

    Messages:
    2,090
    State:
    Kansas CIty, MO
    I hate to lose!! I REFUSE to LOSE!! The way I approach fishing is how other's play there own sport in there right mind.

    When I fish mono I use 40 pound line and 80 pound leaders. When I fish braid I use 80 pound braid and 60 pound leaders. If I'm fishing a lake I'll drop down to 30 sometimes. Anyways if you have ever landed a cat of any size they have a way of using there pectoral fins to there advantage. They like to rub that line up and down on it. Kind of like a saw blade. The thicker the line the better off it is. Thats why I use mono for a leader it's thick strong and has stretch to help with them surges. As far as high capacity reels when it comes to line on the water. Have you ever broke off 5-6 times in a night? Ha no place to buy a new spool of line. Also I hate using line that I just put on a reel. I like it to settle for a day or two. Oh hey. I might as well say.. When chucking 8-16oz of lead light line can break just from the force of throwing it out. Hey though fish have more of an advantage then you may think.
     
  20. Cuda

    Cuda Member

    Messages:
    544
    State:
    Iowa
    Name:
    Mike
    When snelling a hook some times the line gets in the eye where it meets and it just cuts it. And some times we just do not wet the knot right. One little mistake and it really shows. Even new line can be old and not fresh and will not hold a good knot. When doing knot tests you should let out 20 or 30 feet to reel back down on. That way it will no be pulled in from the last test that way they start out even. And different brands of lines will be different in knot strenght and break differently. It is good to hear how people check thier equipment and what works best for them as test and line brand. All good posts!!!!!