Are crossbows more like bows or more like a rifle?

Discussion in 'Bowhunting' started by derbycitycatman, Sep 8, 2005.

  1. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

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    Ok, to me xbows are more like bows. Their primary force to propel their projectile is a string, not gunpowder. The primary force behind a bullet is gunpowder. You do have to pull that string back to cock it, although you dont have to hold it. But compound bows have up to a 65% letoff, if its all about making it as hard as possible dont make allowances for any weapon. The letoff is clearly a mechanical advantage over primitive bows. The range of a xbow is similar to that of a compound bow, and nowhere near the range of a rifle, pistol, or muzzleloader. Ok a xbow uses a trigger to release the arrow, but dont many bowhunters pull a trigger also, I know I do.

    I guess my main objection with a vertical bow only season for the majority of the season is I hear all this talk about how primitive it is. ITs not. Now if you want to say primitive bows only, recurve, longbow or whatever, that I can understand. Take away all mechanical advantages of bows and I would agree on the primitive aspect of bowhunting as well. Why do people think that a xbow makes people think they can shoot better and farther. Couldnt be the persons fault could it?

    If we blame the weapon were all in trouble. Pack up your bows, rifles, pistols and frog spears cause its the weapons fault. Not the idiot holding it. Xbows dont make people stupid or slobs, they were already that way. I know ill never see eye to eye with bowhunters on this one.
     
  2. SSG Johnson

    SSG Johnson New Member

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    638
    State:
    Saint Robert Missouri
    OK brother let me break this down for you:

    Hunting Bow

    1. 1. A device for launching an arrow, which derives its propulsive energy solely from the bending and recovery of two limbs.

    2. The bow must be hand drawn by a single and direct, uninterrupted pulling action of the shooter. The bowstring must be moved from brace height to the full draw position by the muscle power of the shooter’s body. The energy used to propel the arrow shall not be derived from any other source such as hydraulic, pneumatic, mechanical or similar devices. These limitations shall not exclude the mechanical leverage advantage provided by eccentric wheels or cams so long as the available energy stored in the bent limbs of the bow is the sole result of a single, continuous, and direct pulling effort by the shooter.

    3. The bow must be hand-held. One hand shall hold the bow and the other hand draw the bowstring. The bowstring must be moved and/or held at all points in the draw cycle entirely by the muscle power of the shooter until release. The bowstring must be released as a direct and conscious action of the shooter’s either relaxing the tension of the fingers or triggering the release action of a hand-held release aid.

    4. The bow shall be no shorter than 30 inches.

    [U]B. Exceptions: Physically handicapped bow hunters shall be excepted from the requirements of holding or shooting the bow with their hands.[/U]



    1. The following shall not be considered a hunting bow:

    a. A crossbow.


    b. Any device with a gun-type stock or incorporating any device or mechanism that holds the bowstring at partial or full draw without the shooter’s muscle power.

    c. Electronic or battery-powered devices shall not be attached to a hunting bow.

    d. No portion of the bow’s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attachés directly to the bow’s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow’s brace height.



    1. Definition of let-off: That characteristic of a bow that results in a reduction of the force necessary to increase the draw length after the highest level of draw force has been reached. This is characteristic generally associated with, but not restricted to, compound bows.

    2. The maximum let-off on a compound bow shall be measured at a point in the draw cycle after the peak draw weight has been attained. It shall be measured near the end of the draw cycle where the minimum holding force is reached. This point in the draw cycle on a compound bow is known as "the bottom of the valley."

    3. Determination of the percent of let-off: The values of the peak draw force and the let-off force shall be used to calculate the percent of let-off. The peak force is the maximum force obtained during the draw cycle. The let-off force is the lowest force reached following the peak force during a single uninterrupted draw cycle. In all cases, both the highest and lowest force shall be read from a scale during a single and continual pull condition, without relaxation. This technique eliminates the introduction of hysteresis, which can distort the reading.

    % Let-off = 100 X [(Peak Draw Force) - (Minimum Holding Force)] / (Peak Draw Force)

    4. Effective January 1, 2004, animals taken with bows have nominal percent of let-off greater than 65 percent shall be listed with an asterisk (*) in the Records. It is recognized that variations in draw length and/or draw weight can affect the percent of let-off on compound bows. For these reasons minor variations in let-off are acceptable.

    That is from POPE AND YOUNG I don't think you can argue with them.
     

  3. SSG Johnson

    SSG Johnson New Member

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    638
    State:
    Saint Robert Missouri
    PBS National Anti-Crossbow Committee
    The PBS National Anti-Crossbow Committee was established in 1986 in response to increasing threats to the integrity of the archery-only hunting seasons by those manufacturers and other hunters wanting to use crossbows during the archery-only hunting season. Since then, this Committee has led a national effort to educate bowhunters, legislators, state fish and game agencies, and other hunters to the threats presented by those who want to use crossbows in archery-only hunting seasons.

    Bowhunting was meant to be, and is, a difficult and demanding sport. It requires a high level of dedication from its participants if they want to be successful on a regular basis. Today's modern compound bows, coupled with sight pins and mechanical releases, have done much to make it easier for beginning and also experienced archers to reach and maintain levels of proficiency necessary for hunting. Unfortunately, there are still those sportsmen who are not willing to put forth the time and effort to learn to shoot this equipment proficiently but who still want to be permitted to hunt during the archery-only hunting seasons. The crossbow is the perfect answer for today's opportunistic hunter who lacks the dedication and commitment required to be a bowhunter. He's not willing to play by the rules so he attempts to remake them to permit himself to use a more efficient weapons that is much easier to use.

    Where does the interest for crossbow seasons originate? For the most part it is the manufacturers of crossbows who are trying to stimulate interest and get crossbow seasons established. For them, crossbows represent an opportunity to sell a lot of equipment to those sportsmen who have not taken up bowhunting. Crossbows will only be popular if they can be used during archery-only hunting seasons. Few hunters will want to use a crossbow if their use is restricted to muzzleloading and gun seasons. Crossbow manufacturers are providing free hunts and equipment to many outdoor writers who in return write favorable articles trying to stimulate interest in establishing crossbow seasons. It is the manufacturers who stand to profit, not interested hunters, who are pushing hardest to establish crossbow seasons.

    What can be expected if crossbows are legal for use during archery-only hunting seasons? The answer to this question can be found in the state of Ohio where crossbows were made legal for use during the entire archery-only hunting season in the early 1980's. The harvest trend is outlined below (statistics from Ohio DNR publication #166):

    Yearly Harvest by Weapon Type

    Weapon 1982 1985 1988 1991 1993
    Hand-Held Bow 3782 3339 5322 7708 10,155
    Crossbow 446 1689 4716 9401 13,055
    The Ohio statistics clearly show that bowhunters have become a minority in their own hunting season. The gap worsens with each hunting season.

    A comprehensive study comparing the shooting efficiency of crossbows versus hand-held bows was conducted by a professional consulting firm. Hand-held bow shooters were able to keep their shots in a kill zone out to 26 yards while crossbow shooters were able to shoot equivalent groups out to 60 yards. Crossbow shooters with no prior shooting experience with any weapon were able to outperform top competitive hand-held bow shooters who were using modern compound bows equipped with sight pins and release aids. Detailed copies of the Marlow Study may be obtained through the PBS home office for a nominal fee to cover copying and shipping costs.
     
  4. center12

    center12 New Member

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    Not much to add to that :eek:

    Been doing a lot of reading on the crossbow topic, hoosierhunting.com, bowsite.com and kentuckyhunting.com. I've aslo been to several manufactorers sites......350FPS with a hunting bolt, 4" groups at 100 yards.

    Never seen that with a hunting bow, Wow.
     
  5. Desperado

    Desperado Active Member

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    Clarence
    Great Post. That should be put in the library for everyone.
     
  6. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

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    Pope and Young defined what they thought a bow should be, no problem there. How long have they been around, a few hundred years? How long have bows been around, thousands of years. So one group decides they will allow certain mechanical devices, but not others. When were these rules devised, were there cams at the beginning, have their rules ever changed? They can be changed again. I dont know, maybe I can be enlightened. As pointed out, ive been wrong before.

    Im sure we can agree, there is a difference in traditional(primitive) bows to the high tech marvel that todays compounds are. I hear the same arguments from trad. bowhunters that compound hunters use against xbows. Its easier and not in the spirit of archery, so more hunters will be in the woods which will wreck my season.

    Imagine if "elite"(STEREOTYPE) traditional hunters got their way. No compounds in the woods because they are easier and allows more slobs easier access to their hunting. Doesnt sound right to me, maybe it does to you, but I would be in more agreement with the traditional hunters, even if it kept me out of the woods with my compound. Like I said earlier, Mechanical is mechanical to me, not to P @ Y. Pope and young could be influenced by compound bow manufacturers. Remember its all about the money. If they didnt allow compounds imagine how many fewer hunters there would be.
    That would be less clout for P @ Y and less lobbying power to get the season you want. I just think the defintion of bow either needs to be relaxed or tightened. Either way it will be a standard to go by.
    Just my opinion.

    I can see the difference between a primitive bow, compound bow and xbow and heck why not throw a spear into the mix as well. The spear could be the ultimate test of a hunter. Primitive bows and spears totally rely on the muscles of the hunter, unlike a compound. They also totally rely o the hunter for aiming, not a dayglo pin. Yes, I know compounds have to be pulled back and held, but dont hold all the weight. We just disagree here on the importance.

    To me, primitive archery is shooting without any mechanical help, whether it be cams or a trigger. Strictly my opinion, but mechanical is mechanical to me, not to pope and young. I just wish they would make a greater distinction between classes of bows. Compounds and xbows are modern bows. Xbows are just horizontal compounds that use the trigger to hold back the string. Just another smart use of a device, that compounds are full of.
    Once again, my opinion

    I in no way am trying to bash P @ Y. They have their standards and I dont completely agree with them. As you and others have said they have done alot for what we love to do. Without them there may only be rifles in the woods, and most bow hunters or xbow hunters would agree. We dont want that. If Im lucky enough next year to choose between my compound bow or going to buy a xbow, I will appreciate having the choice. Regardless I would hunt with both, now I dont have that choice.

    Quick question, Does P @ Y make a separate class for their records between a recurve and a compound?

    If they do I cant see why they cant make a seperate class for the lowly xbow. Anyone can still look down their noses at the xbow bucks and feel better about themselves because they use a different weapon. Whether that be recurve, compound, xbow, or gunpowder.

    Hunt on.
     
  7. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

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    If its all about the challenge use a recurve. Please dont hide behind the challenge of hunting if your not using the most difficult bow. A compound is just a better and easier version of a recurve bow. If we disagree on that than I dont know what to say. The xbow is just a better and easier version of the compound.

    I was typing my first response while yours was posted.
     
  8. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

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    Please post the differences of power and range between a recurve and a compound. I know there is a difference. What about the difference of the wieght being held back from a recurve that compounds help you with.

    I think if your going to limit bow season, limit it to primitive archery only.
    No mechanics no devices whatsoever. Thats my main gripe about the compound vs xbow thing. Where in that last article were the % of more slob hunters and more accidents caused by xbows. How many Ohio compound hunters decided to give xbows a try? For that matter how many recurve hunters have tried compounds because they are easier.

    I still say if you want to limit bow season to one type of bow, make that bow a recurve so there is more challenge and skill required. Compounds are easier and require less skill to use than a recurve. I hope we can agree on that.
     
  9. quadman

    quadman New Member

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    I think the two main points are being completely ignored here and they are 1. Being as humane and efficient as possible, and 2. Attracting more participants to our sport! I for one love to hunt with a bow! I absolutely love it! I also have to admit however that there have been times when shots went bad and I felt guilty for it, and I put alot of time and effort into my shooting form. What about those that don't have the time or are so weak that they have to shoot low poundage bows that usually cripple alot of deer? Crossbows are not going to suddenly make all the deer dissappear by any means but it just may increase the number of hunters who would like to give it a shot! To me thats the most important factor of all because you better face up to it, our numbers are dropping every year and the only reason we still have this right is because of the money it generates for the states each year. If the numbers fall to a point to where it's not making a profit we will all find out very quick just how much of a RIGHT we have to hunt! If you are against crossbows then by all means use a regular bow, be it compound, recurve or what have you. Just remember that the guy who is choosing to use the crossbow has JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to hunt as you do so quit busting his chops!
     
  10. SSG Johnson

    SSG Johnson New Member

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    NO he doesnt so check the law the laws says he doesnt have the right to hunt with a cross bow so you need to do more research.
     
  11. SSG Johnson

    SSG Johnson New Member

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    Saint Robert Missouri
    Your question was is a crossbow more like bows or rifles I think that has been answered and yet some still dont want to accept it.
     
  12. VerotiK

    VerotiK New Member

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    Harrison, Arkansas
    Good post quadman, and yes, Crossbow hunters do have just as much of a right to hunt as anyone else. Thats a very good statement. If it is against the law, like it is in your state SSG, the only difference is that isn't legal. That statement could just as easily be turned around and aimed at me or derbycityman to read:

    "Just remember that the guy who is choosing to use the compound bow has JUST AS MUCH RIGHT to hunt as you do so quit busting his chops!"

    It is my PRIVELEDGE to hunt, but i have just as much RIGHT to hunt with a xbow as you do a compound bow.

    Now to the main point of the question. Its not hard to distinguish which one the xbow is more like. Its definatley more like a bow. Just like derbycityman said, its just a horizontal bow with a mechanical string release. The xbow isn't like a gun.
    So a crossbow is obviously more like a bow by definition.
     
  13. SSG Johnson

    SSG Johnson New Member

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    State:
    Saint Robert Missouri
    You guys take the cake come to Missouri with your cross bow and I will be the first to call the DNR and tell them that your hunting with it. You can explain to them how you have the right to hunt with it as they take it and your truck or car and all your hunting gear. Your so right about the crossbow being more like the bow I hold mine up to my shoulder with a stick that keeps the bow string held back for me until I pull the trigger. I dont have to spend months honing my skills to hunt I can just lock and load and go again great points guys your really making your case.......
     
  14. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

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    Exactly Quadman,
    Couldnt have said it better myself. Wish I knew how to give you a good rep point.

    Lets see, A gun fires a bullet propelled by gunpowder. Its range is vastly superior to that of the xbow. The amount of shots fired is extremely more effecient and timely than the xbow. Heck I bet I could shoot second shots faster with a compound than a xbow.
     
  15. center12

    center12 New Member

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    It's never been about busting a guy's chops because they hunt with a crossbow(because it must be legal if they are), it's about not allowing them into the archery season because the are not bows.

    Pope & Young does not differentiate between the bows. I've killed game with both types of bows, the only difference to me is the range at which I will shoot at an animal. 20 yards for the curve and 30 for the compound........if averthing is right, and that's not often. I went to one site where they talked about 4" groups at 100 yards with a crossbow, can that be done with a compound(or a recurve in the Olympics) you bet..........but here's the kicker, the crossbow bolt is still carrying enough KE to harvest a deer. 60 yard shots must be a can of corn. I was wrong earlier when I stated that a compound was more effiecent than a crossbow, sorta, a compound does have a longer power stoke than a crossbow and will acheive more speed than a crossbow at the same draw and arrow weight. But crossbows are using so much weight that they are coming up with assinine speed readings with hunting weight arrows............350fps is common. My recurve AMO'd at about 200 fps, my Mathews AMO's at 235fps............that's not that much of a difference.

    Enough rambling, think I'll go fishing night.
     
  16. center12

    center12 New Member

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    Crap, forgot to answer the question: Are crossbows more like bows or more like a rifle.....................there more like a bow than a rifle............but their not a bow :p
     
  17. derbycitycatman

    derbycitycatman Well-Known Member

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    SSG
    I thought you said earlier Ohio allowed xbows during archery season. So its a matter of where you hunt. Tell you what come to Ky, Hunt with your compound 1 day before the season opens and Ill call the law on you. Its against the law just like hunting with a xbow in Missouri is. It can change.

    Unfortunately rights arent always protected. Look what happened in New Orleans. These people have every right to be rescued in a timely manner but they werent. And dont say they should have gotten out. Not all retirement homes and hospitals were evacuated in time either.

    You so rightly pointed out that P @ Y fought for hunting rights.
    Your monopoly of the season is a privilege, not a right. Guess what Ohio and Arkansas changed their laws, and I dont think Kentucky is far behind. But your "rights" are being infringed upon. NO, your just losing your priveledges.
     
  18. SSG Johnson

    SSG Johnson New Member

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    Chatfield, MN - A meeting of the state and provincial-level bow hunting organizations was held at the Pope and Young Club's headquarters in Chatfield, Minnesota on August 6Th and 7Th to further address important bow hunting issues that were identified at the National Bow hunting Summit held in Springfield, Missouri this spring.

    Attended by 41 representatives of 33 organizations (in 29 states and Canadian provinces), the Minnesota conferees completed a crossbow position statement, were taught by experienced bow hunting activists how to strengthen their political skills and how to build a more effective bow hunting organization. They addressed the increased anti-bow hunting threat, began work on a program to assist physically challenged archers to shoot modified conventional bows and developed plans to prepare a position paper on high fenced hunting. Dr. Dave Samuel served as moderator for the conference.

    As the result of the National Bow hunting Summit meetings, its was abundantly clear that the organized bow hunting community is strongly opposed to the growing trend by game agencies of permitting crossbows to be used in bow seasons. A position statement on the crossbow issue was developed and was signed on to by 72 bow hunting organizations and bow hunting related businesses. The position taken is that "crossbows are not bows and therefore should not be permitted in bow seasons or in archery-only hunting areas."

    You guys are right and all these bow hunters are wrong 41 rep. from 33 org. has to be wrong because you are to lazy to take a bow out and learn to shot and kill with it. Don't use the excuse of some people don't have time there is ample time during the summer months to become proficient with a bow.
     
  19. SSG Johnson

    SSG Johnson New Member

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    638
    State:
    Saint Robert Missouri
    Im not going to come to Ky and hunt before season opens because I follow the law Im not the one saying I have the right not to and do what I want to do. Back up what your saying with fact instead of just because you think it should be that way.
     
  20. VerotiK

    VerotiK New Member

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    That is an interesting article. The most disinteresting thing about is that the represenatives that voted are from a Pro-compound/anti-crossbow organization. Would the vote be different if they ask hunters in general, rather than Bowhunting organization executives? Of course these guys are gonna vote against crossbows. Thats why they are representatives. I have plenty of time to hone my skills on my compound bow. That is, if thats what i wanted to use, but it's not. I know,I know. Im a lazy hunter. Keep telling yourself that. It wont hurt my feelings, my opinion has been made clear time and time again. But anyway, here we are straying from the question again, and turning it into an all-out arena.