A question that I have on my mind!

Discussion in 'General Conversation' started by pk_powell, Nov 17, 2006.

  1. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    Anyone who has pay-per-view have you seen the documentary advertized the Ground Truth? If you have please give your opinions I'm just curious!I won't go into detail about it but if you haven't seen it might I suggest you do.I walked away from it with very deep thoughts and concerns!:smile2:
     
  2. buddah

    buddah New Member

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    Nope, Sorry Pat. I havn't seen it. Whats it about?
     

  3. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    Buddah if I tell ya I'm afraid the staff will kick it off and I just wanted the family's opinions. If you see it advertized please watch I garentee it will make you think,it sure did my husband and myself!:smile2:
     
  4. TDawgNOk

    TDawgNOk Gathering Monitor (Instigator)

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    Filmmaker Patricia Foulkrod examines the experiences of Iraq War veterans and the plight of the military.
     
  5. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    You are so right Sir: I must say I walked away from it stunned! Tell me your opinion!:smile2:
     
  6. bootshowl

    bootshowl New Member

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    Pat I'm a veteran, and 54 yrs. old. It would take a lot to stun me.
    I've got a 20 year old son. My only son. Here's my opinion not having seen the program, and I hardly ever watch the news.
    You can't can't wage limited war. WW2 was the last war we had a chance at winning. It was all or nothing. Everyone knew it. Warriors waged it.
    The President(s) consulted with the warriors. Then let them do their jobs.
    The last time we had success, we had a veteran President who gave the task to a warrior and made that task explicit. Over with success in months. Barely qualified as a war. If you have Presidents with their heads up NATO's ass who won't turn their warriors loose, & make them get "permission" to do battle...you got unhappy warriors/troops in extreme danger. Limited war is like "almost a virgin". Ain't nobody happy. I support and love our troops not out of a love for our government, but empathy for their circumstances. In 1970 on my first liberty, walking on the sidewalks of Chicago a carload of college kids with Students For A Democratic Society squirted me and my uniform with India Ink and called me filthy names. No one ever bought me a beer or thanked me for my service. The only place I ever felt safe was at the USO or on base. In 1974 when I was discharged, I took 3 bottles of Jack Daniels into the dessert, burned my uniforms and cryed for all the boys hands I held while they died for nothing. It was six years before I had any kind of life. Over 15 years before the nightmares stopped, and still have one every now an then.
    The Whitehouse can kiss my butt. But I'd gladly die for anyone in uniform.
    I'm sorry if this offends anyone. I don't mean to. A person's life is shaped by their experiences to a large degree. Obviously I haven't suggested to my son that he join the service. And I pray daily for our kids in service that things are better for them. God Bless America. God Bless Our Troops.
    America please don't let them down. Forgive me if I said too much or spoke out of turn.
     
  7. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    I love my Country also and support our troops 100 percent! I was stunned I guess because basically all these precious men and women went and did what they felt it was their duty to do and for that I am very proud of them.Let me explain please.I am a devout Christian woman go to Church frequently,I don't believe in drinking alcholol or the use of illegal drugs.As for legal drugs I seriously question a doctor who keeps placing a patient on addictive drugs for pain when they know darn well that the patient is eventually gonna get hooked all that aside I strive to lead a clean moral life.Don't like foul language ect ect,but last night we seen a preview and we(my husband and I decided we would watch). Now the reason I was stunned: Every single one they talked too and there were several stated firmly they each felt they had been lied too. No one ever said anything to anyone about killing men who were civillians women children and babies.We seen grown men with tears in their eyes discussing Iraq and what it was truly like and how they had placed their life on the line came back injured either physically or emotionally and the Government just turned their head and another words sorry this is your problem not ours! When one man openly stated he killed a woman because he was on a very heavy state of Alert and his training mandated that he kill anything that MAY represent danger he shot her.He found out within seconds that she was an innocent,and he stated he immediately asked himself what am I doing here? I felt so bad for him!As I said I live a clean moral life no drinking anything you know what I'm saying,but I admitted to my husband Goodness Sakes with that weighing on your mind it's no wonder that these poor boys and girls want to use things to escape reality!Staff may I kindly ask that you please don't move this? I'm not tryin to start a ruckus of any kind I guess I was just sorta naieve and thats why I was stunned! I am sorry Gary that you endured what you did but I thank you Sir as I thank all our guys and gals for what they have done and what they continue to do! I too am very very sorry if I have spoken outta turn and been offensive.It was not my intention,so I beg forgiveness if it has come across as offensive! It just was and is a show that really made us stop and think!:0a36:
     
  8. ryang

    ryang Well-Known Member

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    Gary
    It takes milliseconds to find out that shes not. Lets face it he was on a high state of Alert, what did she do to get shot at. The Military over there knows this and so do the Civilians. If you are doing something that may look like you are doing something and you have bad people doing the same thing (to give the impression) then what would you think? I personally think that if he shot her because he thought his life or his buddies life were in danger then he did the right thing. Not to say that he should or would feel bad after doing it (wether right or wrong).

    Pat I was in the Navy, now while I was underway in the Persian Gulf (The first one) the Ship I was on fired THawks toward Iraq. One of these THawks were shot down and went into a hotel that housed reporters. Should I feel bad that this happened no these reporters were in a war zone and knew the dangers.
     
  9. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    I cherish your opinion,in answer to your question if memory serves me he states she was reaching into her bag,naturally he presumed to retrieve a weapon so he shot her,so yes I can understand both sides to this particular situation,but babies small chidren and being told by their commanding Officer to run over them with their tanks?Are these babies and small children being trained to be a threat>Or are they like our children imitating the parents?If the parents are being bad example and teaching the children even small ones to do wrong things then I have to blame the parents,it is just a shame that someone can't take them aside and say No you cannot do this,or do it and you get a spanking am I being Stupid? I don't mean to be,it just really made me think!:confused2:
     
  10. Bubbakat

    Bubbakat New Member

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    Pat I normally don't get into these type of discussions but for some reason I can't let this one go. As for killing kids and women I doubt if that is the norm over there. If I had been on watch with that solder when this incident had occurred and it appeared that she was doing something to bring harm to me or my buddies and he hadn't of fired on her then I would have done one of two things. I would either shot him on the spot for not doing what his training mandated or I would have had him up on charges for dereliction of duty.

    In a war there are to sides and they aren't equal. You have to do what has to be done to stay alive. I served two tours in Nam and ain't proud by no means of some of the things I did but am proud for saving my can for my time here on earth . I know I have some buddies that are thankful for some of the things I did.
    As the old adage says war is hell and I pay every time I have a whole nights sleep from what haunts me but I would do it again to ensure my survival.
     
  11. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    I also Cherish your opinion! And I thank you for serving our country! Please Please don't anyone interpret this as I am against our troops I swear as there is a God in Heaven I am behind them 100 percent. I pray I am not making anyone angry as it is not now nor never will be my intention!
     
  12. Flatheadhunter33

    Flatheadhunter33 New Member

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    Pat,
    I have not seen the movie you mention. From reading the other posts, I think that I might understand what its about. I remember posting in a thread a while back that kind of touched on this subject. As a military member, I can't tell you how many times I have been breifed on what to say to the general public when questioned on this sort of thing. I know that this may sound a bit small minded but, every time i have been over there (and even here at home), i have never gave much of a care for what the media said or what the politicians argued back and forth about. My main concern has always been to do my part. That includes, doing my job as effectively as possible and teaching my troops to do the same. Every bomb, missile or bullet I load on our jets is intended stop the other side and allow our guys out front to accomplish their mission and get back home safely to their families. That is really as far as I look at it. The average military member has no control over when the war will end so we try not to think much about it. "Each day you make it through brings you one more closer to the day you go home".
     
  13. GoFish_Tony

    GoFish_Tony New Member

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    Pat my friend,
    I've not seen this documentary (and probably wont). I am sure that this documentary portrayed war in the light that the producers wanted.

    YEs, my heart breaks for these soldiers that must take another’s life (even sometimes an innocent one), but that IS what war is about. And these soldiers do have to do what they are have to do.

    I have a book that I highly recommend you or others to read. It's called The Faith of the American Soldier by: Stephen Mansfield.

    It talks about how these brave men and women have moved from being the "Nintendo Generation" (that few of us had much hope for) to becoming the brave soldiers and Patriots, that they have become. It also talks about how since WWII this is the first generation of soldiers that knew and understood WHY we are at war.

    This is also a book that talks about how their FAITH has been strengthened in ways that the rest of us can hardly understand. (In talking with a few soldiers I have heard first hand how they found strength, courage, and comfort in their faith. And in many ways I envey them.)

    I also hope I have also not stepped out of line or on any toes. This post is not to alter your view on war, just a book suggestion that might be a help to others.

    Tony
    _
     
  14. MattShannon

    MattShannon New Member

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    Exactly what I was thinking. Not saying this is the case in every situation, but they often show you what they want you to see and not the whole story. They never include the whole interview, which would many times sway the viewer's opinion. They can be very good at this, that's what they get paid for. They may have interviewed 1000 troops, before they found the 1 they wanted.
    I know this thread kinda changed a bit from your original intention, but it is a touchy subject, but I wouldn't worry about it. Civil adults can have a civil discussion without throwing knives. Seems like the guys are just letting you know the other side of the story. If they could make their movie, you'd probably feel different about the situation.
     
  15. Dano

    Dano New Member

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    bootshowl

    Sorry for the disrespectful experience you was treated too while in uniform back then.

    I thank you for your service.
    If our paths ever cross, I'll buy you a beer.
     
  16. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    I value and cherish everyone's say on this!How I feel about this war is I wish it would end and our troops would come home.I respect each and everyone of our men and women who willingly went and served.Sept 11 was absolutely horrific and not an excuse in the book for it,but I believe they have pretty well determined that Irag did not have Weapons of Mass Destruction,so I wonder if we didn't attack the wrong party! Did Sadam Hussein need to go? You bet your bottom dollar he did,absolutely no human being on this earth deserves to be treated the way he treated his people and I am glad he is finally taken care of.But whoever was directly responsable for Sept 11TH is the one we should go and get and get-R-done.Osama Bin Laden is catchable in my opinion and I wonder what seems to be the major problem that is holding it up! Who ever is guilty him and whoever else was in on it with him should have justice dealt swiftly and surely.Get it taken care of and send the troops home! This is just my humble opinion!:smile2:
     
  17. s_man

    s_man New Member

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    PK, some of the earlier posts said it but I will repeat. The film you saw was supposed to make you feel this way. Yes, there are tragic stories to tell in any war or conflict. It wouldn't be a war if everything was all peaches and cream. But there are many more stories of soldiers helping civillians and helping each other that won't get told. We here in the states have no idea what its like to walk in these guys boots day after day. Wondering if this is the last patrol they make, or if they will die in their sleep. Sometimes choices have to be made in an instant. Life or death choices. Yes you can do something because you "have to" and still be upset or remorseful about it, but it had to be done. That doesn't make you a bad person. These men and women are doing the best that they can. They are our neighbors, fathers, brothers and sisters, mothers.....
    They have the same feelings we do. But this program seems to have wanted to point out only the negative things they could find. Its a backhanded swipe at the war and the president. I'm positive that if they wanted to they could make a good propaganda film like the WWII films. They just choose not to.
     
  18. pk_powell

    pk_powell New Member

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    Thank you Sir very much for your response! I agree with you the film was probably geared to make me have these feelings and now I regret seeing it! I respect each and everyone of you men willing to give me their thoughts on this sensative subject!:big_smile:
     
  19. squirtspop

    squirtspop New Member

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    I haven't seen the documentary either but I agree that they cut and edit to sell their story.

    If you want some real history that hasn't had a lot of publicity go to your search engine and type in James Bond Stockdale and hit search. Then do some reading. It tells of the cover up that got us into the Viet Nam war.

    I was in a fighter training squadron for F8 Crusaders. At the time it was the best fighter plane the navy had. I met Stockdale there when he came for training and later I was transferred to Fighter Squadron 51 where he came to be assigned as the commanding officer. I worked in the pesonnel/admin office and got to know him quite well, both on the job and off. He is truly one of America's finest heros.

    But the main thing is in reading about him of the huge cover up and what the politicians and media wanted us Americans not to know about or just what made good "news".
     
  20. Bubbakat

    Bubbakat New Member

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    Sixty-three years ago, Nazi Germany had overrun almost all of Europe and hammered England to the verge of bankruptcy and defeat, and had sunk more than four hundred British ships in their convoys between England and America for food and war materials.

    At that time the U. S. was in an isolationist, pacifist mood, and most Americans wanted nothing to do with the European or the Asian war.

    Then along came Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1941, and in outrage Congress unanimously declared war on Japan, and the following day on Germany, which had not yet attacked us. It was a dicey thing. We had few allies.

    France was not an ally, as the Vichy government of France quickly aligned itself with its German occupiers. Germany was certainly not an ally, as Hitler was intent on setting up a Thousand Year Reich in Europe. Japan was not an ally, as it was well on its way to owning and controlling all of Asia. Together, Japan and Germany had long-range plans of invading Canada and Mexico, as launching pads to get into the United States over our northern and southern borders, after they finished gaining control of Asia and Europe. America's only allies then were England, Ireland, Scotland, Canada, Australia, and Russia. That was about it. All of Europe, from Norway to Italy, except Russia in the east, was already under the Nazi heel.

    America was certainly not prepared for war. America had drastically downgraded most of its military forces after WWI and throughout the depression, so that at the outbreak of WW2, army units were training with broomsticks because they didn't have guns, and cars with "tank" painted on the doors because they didn't have real tanks. And a huge chunk of our navy had just been sunk or damaged at Pearl Harbor.

    Britain had already gone bankrupt, saved only by the donation of $600 million in gold bullion in the Bank of England, that was actually the property of Belgium, given by Belgium to England to carry on the war when Belgium was overrun by Hitler (a little known fact). Actually, Belgium surrendered on one day, because it was unable to oppose the German invasion, and the Germans bombed Brussels into rubble the next day just to prove they could. Britain had already been holding out for two years in the face of staggering shipping loses and the near-decimation of its air force in the Battle of Britain, and was saved from being overrun by Germany only because Hitler made the mistake of thinking the Brits were a relatively minor threat that could be dealt with later, and first turning his attention to Russia, at a time when England was on the verge of collapse, in the late summer of
    1940.

    Ironically, Russia saved America's butt by putting up a desperate fight for two years, until the U. S. got geared up to begin hammering away at Germany.

    Russia lost something like 24 million people in the sieges of Stalingrad and Moscow alone... 90% of them from cold and starvation, mostly civilians, but also more than a MILLION soldiers.

    Had Russia surrendered, Hitler would have been able to focus his entire war effort against the Brits, then America. And the Nazis could possibly have won the war.

    All of this is to illustrate that turning points in history are often dicey things. And now, we find ourselves at another one of those key moments in history.

    There is a very dangerous minority in Islam that either has, or wants and may soon have, the ability to deliver small nuclear, biological, or chemical weapons, almost anywhere in the world.

    The Jihadis, the militant Muslims, are basically Nazis in Kaffiyahs -- they believe that Islam, a radically conservative form of Wahhabi Islam, should own and control the Middle East first, then Europe, then the world. And that all who do not bow to their will of thinking should be killed, enslaved, or subjugated. They want to finish the Holocaust, destroy Israel, and purge the world of Jews. This is their mantra.

    There is also a civil war raging in the Middle East -- for the most part not a hot war, but a war of ideas. Islam is having its Inquisition and its Reformation, but it is not known yet which will win -- the Inquisitors, or the Reformists.

    If the Inquisition wins, then the Wahhabis, the Jihadis, will control the Middle East, the OPEC oil, and the US, European, and Asian economies. The techno-industrial economies will be at the mercy of OPEC -- not an OPEC dominated by the educated, rational Saudis of today, but an OPEC dominated by the Jihadis.

    You want gas in your car? You want heating oil next winter? You want the dollar to be worth anything? You better hope the Jihad, the Muslim Inquisition, loses, and the Islamic Reformation wins.

    If the Reformation movement wins, that is, the moderate Muslims who believe that Islam can respect and tolerate other religions, and live in peace with the rest of the world, and move out of the 10th century into the 21st, then the troubles in the Middle East will eventually fade away, and a moderate and prosperous Middle East will emerge.

    We have to help the Reformation win, and to do that we have to fight the Inquisition, i. e., the Wahhabi movement, the Jihad, Al Qaeda and the Islamic terrorist movements. We have to do it somewhere. And we can't do it everywhere at once. We have created a focal point for the battle at a time and place of our choosing........ in Iraq.

    Not in New York, not in London, or Paris or Berlin, but in Iraq, where we are doing two important things.

    (1) We deposed Saddam Hussein. Whether Saddam Hussein was directly involved in 9/11 or not, it is undisputed that Saddam has been actively supporting the terrorist movement for decades. Saddam is a terrorist.

    Saddam is, or was, a weapon of mass destruction, who is responsible for the deaths of probably more than a million Iraqis and two million Iranians.

    (2) We created a battle, a confrontation, a flash point, with Islamic terrorism in Iraq. We have focused the battle. We are killing bad people, and the ones we get there we won't have to get here. We also have a good shot at creating a democratic, peaceful Iraq, which will be a catalyst for democratic change in the rest of the Middle East, and an outpost for a stabilizing American military presence in the Middle East for as long as it is needed.

    World War II, the war with the German and Japanese Nazis, really began with a "whimper" in 1928. It did not begin with Pearl Harbor. It began with the Japanese invasion of China. It was a war for fourteen years before America joined it. It officially ended in 1945 -- a 17 year war -- and was followed by another decade of U. S. occupation in Germany and Japan to get those countries reconstructed and running on their own again .. a 27 year war.

    World War II cost the United States an amount equal to approximately a full year's GDP -- adjusted for inflation, equal to about $12 trillion dollars. WWII cost America more than 400,000 killed in action, and nearly 100,000 still missing in action.

    The Iraq war has, so far, cost the US about $160 billion, which is roughly what 9/11 cost New York. It has also cost about 2,200 American lives, which is roug hly 2/3 of the 3,000 lives that the Jihad snuffed on
    9/11. But the cost of not fighting and winning WWII would have been unimaginably greater -- a world dominated by German and Japanese Nazism.

    Americans have a short attention span, conditioned by 30 second sound bites,
    60 minute TV shows, and 2 hour movies in which everything comes out okay.

    The real world is not like that. It is messy, uncertain, and sometimes bloody and ugly. Always has been, and probably always will be.

    The bottom line is that we will have to deal with Islamic terrorism until we defeat it, whenever that is. It will not go away if we ignore it.

    If the U. S. can create a reasonably democratic and stable Iraq, then we have an "England" in the Middle East, a platform, from which we can work to help modernize and moderate the Middle East. The history of the world is the clash between the forces of relative civility and civilization, and the barbarians clamoring at the gates. The Iraq war is merely another battle in this ancient and never-ending war. And now, for the first time ever, the barbarians are about to get nuclear weapons. Unless somebody prevents them.

    We have four options:

    1. We can defeat the Jihad now, before it gets nuclear weapons.

    2. We can fight the Jihad later, after it gets nuclear weapons (which may be as early as next year, if Iran's progress on nuclear weapons is what Iran claims it is).

    3. We can surrender to the Jihad and accept its dominance in the Middle East, now, in Europe in the next few years or decades, and ultimately in America.

    4. Or, we can stand down now, and pick up the fight later when the Jihad is more widespread and better armed, perhaps after the Jihad has dominated France and Germany and maybe most of the rest of Europe. It will, of course, be more dangerous, more expen sive, and much bloodier.

    If you oppose this war, I hope you like the idea that your children, or grandchildren, may live in an Islamic America under the Mullahs and the Sharia, an America that resembles Iran today.

    The history of the world is the history of civilization clashes, cultural clashes. All wars are about ideas, ideas about what society and civilization should be like, and the most determined always win.

    Those who are willing to be the most ruthless always win. The pacifists always lose, because the anti-pacifists kill them.

    Remember, perspective is everything, and America's schools teach too little history for perspective to be clear, especially in the young American mind.

    The Cold war lasted from about 1947 at least until the Berlin Wall came down in 1989. Forty-two years. Europe spent the first half of the 19th century fighting Napoleon, and from 1870 to 1945 fighting Germany.

    World War II began in 1928, lasted 17 years, plus a ten year occupation, and the U. S. still has troops in Germany and Japan. World War II resulted in the death of more than 50 million people, maybe more than 100 million people, depending on which estimates you accept.

    The U. S. has taken more than 2,000 KIA in Iraq. The U. S. took more than
    4,000 killed in action on the morning of June 6, 1944, the first day of the Normandy Invasion to rid Europe of Nazi Imperialism. In WWII the US averaged 2,000 KIA a week -- for four years. Most of the individual battles of WWII lost more Americans than the entire Iraq war has done so far.

    But the stakes are at least as high .. A world dominated by representative governments with civil rights, human rights, and personal freedoms ... or a world dominated by a radical Islamic Wahhabi movement, by the Jihad, under the Mullahs and the Sharia (Islamic law).

    It's difficult to understand why the American left does not grasp this. They favor human rights, civil rights, liberty and freedom, but evidently not for Iraqis.

    "Peace Activists" always seem to demonstrate here in America, where it's safe.

    Why don't we see Peace Activist demonstrating in Iran, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, North Korea, in the places that really need peace activism the most?

    The liberal mentality is supposed to favor human rights, civil rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc., but if the Jihad wins, wherever the Jihad wins, it is the end of civil rights, human rights, democracy, multiculturalism, diversity, etc. Americans who oppose the liberation of Iraq are coming down on the side of their own worst enemy.