A fundamental question about national health care

Discussion in 'General Conversation' started by BenNewt, Oct 15, 2009.

  1. BenNewt

    BenNewt New Member

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    In this national health care debate, as in many others, we hear all sides telling us what “the Founders wanted”. When our country was formed, the health care situation of the general public was horrible. Tons of babies and their mothers died in childbirth and a common cold could ultimately lead to death. In fact, the average life expectancy in the U.S. in 1750 was between 30 and 40 years old (http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~shammas/hist350/u_s.htm).

    Fortunately for us, the Founders (Washington, Jefferson, Adams, etc.) wrote thousands of pages on what they envisioned for our country. Why did they not write a single page on the Government’s role of providing health care to its citizens?

    Could it be that they could not even envision a world in which anyone would think it’s the Government’s job to provide health care?
     
  2. jeremiad

    jeremiad Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, but this is the most illogical post I have read in quite a while.

    Just what "national healthcare" would our founding fathers have suggested? George Washington was bled to death by the "healthcare" of the day.

    Thank God for everything but socialized medicine that has brought us modern medical miracles that we have today.

    Please study history and stay out of the debate.
     

  3. AwShucks

    AwShucks New Member

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    Somehow it seems we should throw aside our capitalistic views in the area of health care. It should be nationalized. Whatever the price is for an office visit in Spokane, WA should be the same price in Tampa, Fla, Los Angles, and Bangor Maine. I realize the enormous amount of time and money doctors spend getting their education, but why should I be financially bled for that? Our government is the body that let college education get so expensive. Every year it is announced there is an increase in tuition at all major universities in Oklahoma. Sure, it is nice for the professors to get raises, and to teach smaller classes. It would be nice also if there was an increase in my salary proportionate to the rise in tuition. But there is nothing there for us. Gasoline goes up, postage goes up, food goes up, utilities go up, all without one cent increase in what I take home. At any rate, even though Congress pushes through their version of health care, it is not going to do anything but make in so expensive it will be cheaper to pay the fine instead of buying the insurance. We are gonna get the well known "pig in a poke".
     
  4. BenNewt

    BenNewt New Member

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    I'm a biomedical engineer and I work on medical miracles for a living--so I have to be "part of the debate". Your point is a red herring as people 200 years from now will probably view our current medical care as you view Washington's. I can't help but notice that you didn't address my question...:crazy:
     
  5. jeremiad

    jeremiad Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, Ben, but I think that I misunderstood your post entirely. I reread it several times to finally realize what you were trying to say.

    I suppose that you were rather surprised by my response! I think emphasis needs placed on the "could not even envision." Remove that one word and you could interpret your post quite diferently. In that light, my response would be reasonable.

    Oh, well, sorry again.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  6. BenNewt

    BenNewt New Member

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    Yeah hey thats no problem. My main point of the thread is not really even to debate nationalized health care vs. our current system. Its just that in the debate, as in many others, people continually go back to our Founders and the Constitution. And that's fine. But it must be noted that when the Founders were formulating their view of how America should be, they didn't include federal (or even state) run healthcare.
     
  7. jeremiad

    jeremiad Well-Known Member

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    True, but reading Thomas Paine's Common Sense, even the first page, will definitely reveal our Founders' general feeling regarding the role of government of any kind in our lives; and I quote:

    (Emphasis his)

    To which I say, Amen!
     
  8. BenNewt

    BenNewt New Member

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    Excellent! Thomas Paine would role over in his grave if he could see the insanity that modern politicians have created in this country. The government owns a car company, runs our education system, retirement system (ss), and is about ready to get into the health care system among other things. Its amazing...:crazy:
     
  9. flathead willie

    flathead willie Well-Known Member

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    I have to agree Jeremaid. This is about the dumbest thing I've read all week.
     
  10. BenNewt

    BenNewt New Member

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    I think you're missing the point of the thread, and that's probably my fault as I may have worded it poorly. The Founding Fathers didn't write about a "national health care system" because they didn't believe it was the government's role to provide one.
     
  11. 223reload

    223reload New Member

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    I got your point ,And I agree They didn't think it was needed ,Cause it ain't needed.:wink:
     
  12. flathead willie

    flathead willie Well-Known Member

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    They didn't see the need for NASA ether. To compare the times we live in now to the 1700s is just plain wrong!
     
  13. BenNewt

    BenNewt New Member

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    That's because space travel didn't exist then; healthcare did. Jesus addressed healthcare in the New Testament; the issue has been around for a long, long, long, time.

    And just to be clear, I'm not comparing the times that we live in now with the 1700's: I'm comparing the prevailing political philosophies. The Founders did not believe it was the duty of the federal government to tax its citizens in order to administer healthcare. They would believe such an idea to be tyrannical.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  14. plainsman

    plainsman New Member Supporting Member

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    Health care costs money. A few years ago I heard a grocery store employee complain about the cost of her medications. She wanted to work at the store and have the store buy her insurance to pay for her medications, and also make a good wage. She complained that her medication cost too much money and after working all week she had to spend it on her medication. I thought, Gee, must be nice to have a job to be able to afford it.

    People been told they need health care, and I agree they do, but I don't believe that I or anyone else should be forced to pay for it, or buy it if they dont' want it. There is no Utopia, and I dont' make the kind of money its projected to cost. I agree there needs to be reform, but I would prefer the Gov get things set up and show us what we're getting before they tell me I got to buy it.

    A young man from Canada stopped in a month or so ago. He claimed their health care system was great for emergency work, but not for making routine appointments. His girlfriends mother got sick and needed an MRI and she got it that day, as well as surgery. But for someone who went to a doctor and had it recommended it could take months.

    The Clintons invested heavily in it, then told us we needed to have everyone covered. Its not just about taking care of everyone. Its a parents job to take care of his kids, and raise them to be able to take care of themselves. What about those who can't take care themselves? Well, require them to be covered with the govt plan and let the others take care themselves. The very rich look out for themselves, the very poor hope they stay healthy. Those of us in the middle pay for it.
     
  15. AwShucks

    AwShucks New Member

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    My 42 year old son had a stroke in March and lost his complete left side. We currently are paying $620.00 per month for Cobra insurance. He has been approved for social security disability, but the first payment does not start until 6 months after the onset of the disability. He will receive something in the vicinity of 1100.00 per month for his disability, starting October 26th. He had the foresight to take our disability insurance through his employer. But the insurance company, wanting to insure they were not paying for a pre-existing condition, delayed the disability payments until this week. He was supposed to get 60% of his salary, which was $30.00 per hour for a 144 hour work month. which I calculate as appx 4300.00 per month. (he was a registered nurse). Somehow the disability insurance company only recognizes a salary of about $2010.00 per month and they will pay $1,205.00 per month, but this will be offset by the social security payments he receives, or in other words, he will see about $400.00 from the disability insurance. You think thats bad, well, once he starts drawing his social security, the Cobra insurance payments increase to approximately $1,575.00 per month - or more than he will have coming in. He still needs to see a doctor and his prescription drugs....forgot to mention he is a diabetic, so there is more of a monthly expense. The good old social security administration states he must be disabled for 24 months before he can start to receive Medicare, and he will be making too much money for Medicaid (which he can't draw until he is on Medicare). So, tell me, how the heck is the family supposed to make it...I am retired and can't afford these payments either. They say it is on the family. Bull. Something is wrong somewhere.
     
  16. flathead willie

    flathead willie Well-Known Member

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    And your expertise on what the founding fathers thought/believed comes from where? Why put so much stock in the founding fathers to begin with? They were not saints, they were not physics, they were not geniuses. They were farmers and businessmen. The fact that there are 27 amendments to the constitution proves that the founding fathers were far from perfect. Those fighting health care reform are the same ones that have already raped this country. The same people have already, since Feb., spent $500 million dollars of the money they took from premium payers to fight reform. These are the same ones that have been telling us for 30 years that they would bring costs under control...and have lied the entire time. That is a half a billion dollars that they have over charged the citizens of this country, (and that doesn't count the 100s of millions they spent doing the same thing during the Clinton administration!).
    Maybe you can explain how the founding fathers could put so much stock in the people's right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" without regard to protecting the health that sustains that life.
    This is just more right wing BS aimed at putting more and more money into the pockets of those who have already put this country on the brink of bankruptcy. What you call "government controlled health care" is good enough for our military and our elderly and disabled, but not good enough for the working men and women that built this country, I suppose. Tax payer paid health care is good enough for our congressmen and senators, but it isn't good enough for those who elected them, I guess.
    Our founding fathers didn't intend for corporate kings to control our government; you know, the government "of the people, by the people, for the people, " ether, but we have allowed it to happen anyway.
    I suspect you have a dog in this fight, otherwise I find it hard to believe that you would be opposed to trying to fix a system that most everyone knows is one of the very worst, most expensive systems in the entire world. I also suspect that you have never lived in, or had any real first hand experience, with a "socialized medicine" system. Maybe you can explain to us what a good thing it is that we pay more than 10 times as much for the same pill as any other country. Maybe you can explain to us why paying up to three times as much for a health care system that is lagging far behind any other system in the modern world is a benefit for the people that have made this the richest most powerful country in the world. Maybe you can explain to us why the same party that is fighting so hard to maintain the massive profits of the insurance companies, is the same party that has been promising to reduce costs for the last 30 years. Tell us what the founding fathers thought about a system that rewards a citizens lifetime of hard work by stagnating their wages, rationing care, refusing treatment, and allowing those who put their lives on the line for this country to die for lack of treatment and insurance.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  17. BenNewt

    BenNewt New Member

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    I appreciate your enthusiasm, but my point here was not to debate socialized medicine vs. non socialized medicine. The point was to illustrate that government run healthcare would be a radical departure from what the Founders of our country envisioned for America. I think you bring up some good points, but they are a separate issue.

    I don't understand why you have to lump my question into the category of "right wing BS"; I'm not a politician or a lobbyist--I'm just a normal guy asking an obvious question. We all have ponies in this show, for inexpensive health care for you now could mean trillions of dollars in higher taxes for my children and grandchildren.

    If you would like to debate socialized medicine, you could start up a different thread, and I'll chime in. :wink:
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  18. Mark J

    Mark J New Member

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    I don't think anyone will argue for the need of healthcare reform.
    However I will argue until the end of time that it is stupid to finance a new car because your old one has a flat tire.

    The problem of high healthcare costs isn't even being addressed in the bills other then the first bill that would ration care.

    You got millions of illegals in this country. Nothing presented so far will guarantee that they WILL NOT BE COVERED.
    I don't think it's right that the tax payer be forced to pay for the healthcare of thse people. Let Mexico.

    Tort reform. Lawsuits are a major reason for high insurance costs.
    So is limited options.
    Your auto insurance would be as high as your health insurance if you couldn't buy auto insurance out of state.
    GOVERNMENT has played a big hand in rising healthcare costs through stupid laws that prevent competition.

    They aren't even addressing these issues. That tells me right there it dont have a thing to do with lowering the cost of healthcare. It's about paying political debt and scratching backs.

    You got to address the problems before you can fix it.
    The democrats aren't doing it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2009
  19. jeremiad

    jeremiad Well-Known Member

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    Point well made. I think it absolutely amazing how many ...[well-intentioned lemmings?] argue for government-run, socialized medicine because the current system is broken, then they use Medicare/Medicaid issues, or veterans' administration problems to back up their claims!

    What I find even more unsustainable is how countless thousands from foreign lands are lined up for a chance to be cured by our outrageously expensive and absolutely horrid privatized health care system. Amazing...
     
  20. Phil Washburn

    Phil Washburn New Member

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    and how are you more qualified than Ben in this arena willie? where does YOUR expertise come from?