Hoopnets - What are the impacts on catfish?

[JimF]

I was wondering if anyone could tell me the impact hoopnets have on the IL river. I know of one guy that sells fish to all the fine eating places around here. I hear tell that he sells 200 lbs of catfish fillets to one place alone.I wish there was something that could be done to stop this. If it was to stop, the IL river would be much better fishery. I have no problem with buffalo, carp and bighead carp, but the over harvest of catfish sould be stoped. During the spawn, one hoopnet can easily produce 1000 lbs of catfish. To me this can not go on!!

What do you think?

[flathunter]

I agree with you, commercial fishing in the united states should be banned...I dont care if the fishermen are out of jobs, they can go get another one.

[JimF]

fish are a public resource, just like deer & turkey, I can't kill them and sell them for any amount of money. how do we stop this?

[Dwednuts]

The only way these people will stop is if the catfish is made a gamefish. Taking game fish by net in almost every state is ilegal. But you know and I know that that will not happen until we get someone to lobby for US in the Whitehouse.
The commercial fishermen always have an excuse as to why or how they are not hurting the fishery. But the people in washington are lucky to get out and fish for bluegill, so what do they know. I am sure that a couple of them will chime in on this thread shortly and try to tell you that they are doing a good thing. But don't be fooled by the smoke they are blowing. They are good at it. They will always come up with a bunch of statistics that favor their cause to keep them in business.
I say go out and get a regular job like everyone else does.

[JimF]

just across the mississippi river in MO, they can not do this, in fact there is a limit of 7 catfish per day. I wish we had that here. If all you could keep is 7........ I guess I wouldn't care how you took them( rod & reel, bank pole, trout line, bow fish )as long as you didn't sell them. As far as I am concerned catfish are gamefish and should be treated as such. This forum could do something about it. It would take someone smarter than me, but some sort of e-mail letter writing campain. there are a lot of members on here, that could flood their e-mail boxes.

[rasimmons]

sorry but i will play devils advocate one this one. if commercial fishing is banned in the u.s. the price of fish will go sky high and those of us that are not fortunate enough or just plain not able to go out to the water and catch a fish will not be able to afford to eat it at all. i do use a hoop net from time to time but have never kept a cat out of one only the big head carp to give to a friend who is not able to go out and catch them for his annual family reunion .. i do agree catfish should be a game fish and should not be taken in any form of net

[Larry]

Up in MN they are pretty tight with the regs on Catfish compared to Other parts of the Country. As well as other fishing species.
Limit of 5 Cats
only 1 over 24 inches
only 2 out of the 5 can be flatheads.

I think that we will see a movement to better concervation nation wide but I do agree with one of the earlier posts (JIM F). That this forum might be able to generate enough momementum to initiate a change.
JMHO.
Larry

[JimF]

sorry but i will play devils advocate one this one. if commercial fishing is banned in the u.s. the price of fish will go sky high and those of us that are not fortunate enough or just plain not able to go out to the water and catch a fish will not be able to afford to eat it at all. i do use a hoop net from time to time but have never kept a cat out of one only the big head carp to give to a friend who is not able to go out and catch them for his annual family reunion .. i do agree catfish should be a game fish and should not be taken in any form of net good I hope it does go sky high, then these people can start fish farms and make a living doing that. I think that supermarkets around here sell only farm raised catfish anyway. $4.99 a lb for fillets, thats not that bad.

[Shawn]

I can't reproduce it here in it's entirety, but I interviewed IL commercial fisheries chief Rob Maher about two years ago for an article. He refers to the commercial guys as "my constituents"; when I asked about a possible closed wintering season to protect wintering fish he downplayed the idea, but confirmed "the commercial catches during the winter are impressive."

He gave me a long explanation about how there's fewer commercial guys making a go of it, and they sell less licenses per year... it's dwindling down. Later on, I asked about the number of net tags or device tags, and he confirmed "there are about the same number of devices being used." So there are less commercial fishing operations, but like farmers many of the smaller operators are dropping out, and more and more big operations are doing it. I'm just reporting what I was told....

Obviously, Illinois has no interest in changing things anytime soon by granting the catfish "game fish" status. They also only tend to protect stocked fish populations, which is why catfish only get site specific regulations in Illinois (mostly lakes and reservoirs.) The river catfish populations are "self sustaining." And consider that in Illinois, the catfish may be the most popular sport fish. If not, they're a close second.

I'm sure commerical fishing is very, very hard work. But, who is eating these fish full of PCBs from the Illinois river anyhow? Haven't they read the fish consumption advisories? I wonder if they're not exported. Most of the resturant and grocery fish come from fish farms, don't they?

enough ranting... I have seen guys on the Rock river running hoop nets, and they were taking carp so more power to them for that!

Shawn

[Dwednuts]

sorry but i will play devils advocate one this one. if commercial fishing is banned in the u.s. the price of fish will go sky high and those of us that are not fortunate enough or just plain not able to go out to the water and catch a fish will not be able to afford to eat it at all. i do use a hoop net from time to time but have never kept a cat out of one only the big head carp to give to a friend who is not able to go out and catch them for his annual family reunion .. i do agree catfish should be a game fish and should not be taken in any form of net
The fish you buy at the supermarket are not and should not ever be from the river systems to much lead and mercury in them for that. They are taking them for dog and cat food, not to mention the organic fertilizer they make out of them. Most of the bigger fish are sold to Pa* L***S as entertainment for people that don't know how to catch them in the wild.

[rasimmons]

good point dreadnaught and jimf i did not even think about farm raised fish like i said only playing devils advocate no harm no foul i hope

[JimF]

I know a guy that does it here on the IL, He sells to resturants, He told me that one resturant buys 200lbs of catfish fillets every week. It does not matter if they or full of pcbs. There is no warnings on the menu. people don't know where it comes from. Maybe that is where we should start. Get the gov to make resturants & supermarkets post warnings about where the fish come from.

[Dwednuts]

I know a guy that does it here on the IL, He sells to resturants, He told me that one resturant buys 200lbs of catfish fillets every week. It does not matter if they or full of pcbs. There is no warnings on the menu. people don't know where it comes from. Maybe that is where we should start. Get the gov to make resturants & supermarkets post warnings about where the fish come from.
That is a great Idea, Brother!!

[Shawn]

I tried to research the issue of commercial catfish for food last year, and it was pretty involved... if I remember right

Sale of fish caught commercially is regulated by United States Department of Agriculture.

The fish sampling and fish consumption advisiories are put out by the state Department of Natural Resources... I don't know, maybe the FDA is involved somewhere in all this too...

Seems to be some disconnect to me... maybe it's like before 9/11 where the FBI and CIA weren't sharing any information. I guess we should all start asking the resturants where the fish came from!

Shawn

[wendell]

The comercial fisherman are the ones that donate the fish for testing. DNR tells them the size they need for testing.The illinois rivers has really improved in the last 30 years.
If comercial fishing was outlawed where would some of the pole and line guys buy fish to brag about to there friends and family.This happens alot more than you think.

[elmer]

If comercial fishing was outlawed where would some of the pole and line guys buy fish to brag about to there friends and family.This happens alot more than you think

I guess the dishonest would either become a little more honest about their catch.....................or quiet;)

A win win situation.:D


The original question was......
I was wondering if anyone could tell me the impact hoopnets have on the IL river

The impact of comercial harvesters on the Illinois river is Obviously FAR fewer fish, bigger fish, left for sporstman to enjoy doing battle with.

Can anybody put an FACTUAL figure on the number of fish, or pounds of fish taken by hoopnets and the like?

Does anybody think that as a group, commercial fisherman are going to report EVERY dollar they recieved for EVERY fish they trapped than sold or "traded" away? Even to the lowly pole angler that comes up empty handed after spending a day fishing the same area just raped by a set of hoopnets?

Not in our lifetime..... Like Wendell hints......'fisherman' LOVE to tell stories.

[elmer]

Shawn,
In the research you did, were you able to come up with any estimates the IDNR might have provided as to the number of fish or pounds of fish we as taxpayers and sportsman donated to the commercial 'fishermans' inventory?

[Shawn]

no... I think they do creel surveys from time to time, but like sportfishing creel surveys the information given may not be accurate.

Shawn

[elmer]

Hmmmmmmmm.....

Commercial Fisherman shall keep an accurate record throughout the year of their catch and commercial fishing activities showing the
species and number of pounds taken, type of gear used and location taken. Additional information required includes disposition of fish
and eggs harvested and price received for fish and eggs sold.This information shall be open for inspection by the Department of Natural Resources at all times and shall be submitted to DNR on official forms as requested by the
Department. Failure to submit such required reports is a violation of Illinois Law and shall be grounds for the Department to refuse to
issue a license for the following year.

More specifically


Section 830.90 Revocation and Suspension of Commercial Fishing and Musseling Privileges, Hearings and Appeals and Reporting Requirements

c) Commercial fishermen shall submit an accurate annual record of the undressed weights of the species of fish and/or crayfish harvested to the Department by January 31 of the following year, whether or not any fish and/or crayfish were harvested.

Armed with the information submitted by commercial harvesters as required BY LAW, I would think a "fairly accurate" number could be provided by the DNR as to what is being taken and sold.

If they "cant" provide one, I believe the freedom of information act could be used to take a peek of the records they OBVIOUSLY, MUST keep.



Of course, and again, the numbers provided would only be as accurate as the honesty of those providing the numbers. :crying:

[JimF]

The same commercial fisherman( that I know) has taken many many catfish over 40lbs & many over 60lbs. These are the fish that need to pass down their genes. This sinseless slaughter of these larger fish must be stopped. He also keeps every flathead he catches, does not matter if it is 2lbs or 70lbs, they are sold to resturants. There should be a limit for all fisherman, like 1 catfish over 27" per day and only 5 cats total per day.

[screen]

Great thread! So this is what the BOC is all about! Brotherhood and keeping us informed!

SO! What can we do next?????????????????????

How do we get heard and how do we effect change?

And? How can we make this a project for all HERE!?

[JimF]

Great thread! So this is what the BOC is all about! Brotherhood and keeping us informed!

SO! What can we do next?????????????????????

How do we get heard and how do we effect change?

And? How can we make this a project for all HERE!?Next??? Get involved.. tell everyone... tell every catfishing club,contest, person we can find. Every state that has not already done so has to be involved. Heard & effect Change??? We must get enough people to stand up to the government( congress, DNR, senators I don't know who all ) and demand a change in the laws. project for all here??? This thread might need to get moved so more people can see it.

I know that there are some people on here that have insight into how to make these things happen....Lawers or people that work for the DNR or are involved with the government. Like I stated before it will take someone smarter than me to help get it started. I am new here, so, someone get these folks to help. You guys know who they are. Ask them for help or ask that lawer that you play golf with what we can do to get this snowball rolling down what might just be a very long hill.

I know this is something that affects all sport fishermen, so, lets do something about it.

[5gallonsofsafety]

so basically what we need is for the catfish family to be converted to a game fish and (in illinios) they will be left alone?

[JimF]

so basically what we need is for the catfish family to be converted to a game fish and (in illinios) they will be left alone?Yes, that is all we need to do, but I would also like to see a limit of some kind put in place.

[Shawn]

I wrote fisheries chief (at the time) Mike Conlin and commercial fisheries chief Rob Maher back in 2002 suggesting protection of trophy catfish.

what I wrote is at the bottom. This was sent to DNR contacts with about 30 angler names affixed to it.

Maher responded that they are seeing healthy catfish populations, and didn't think restrictions were warranted. I talked to him in 2003 as follow-up, and they did confirm they only sampled fish populations in some streams every five years. They essentially use site specific limits only to protect their investment for stocked catfish, and have no limits on Illinois rivers. Catch as many as you want, any size, blues-channels-flatheads.

I don't know that reducing the number of hooks setliners are using would be the way to go... what would make the most difference would probably be some restrictions based on size, creel limits on blue/flathead catfish, and banning commercial flathead/blue harvest. Now that Illinois holds the state record for blues, maybe a new push might work.

Mike Conlin - Chief of Fisheries

Rob Maher - IDNR Commercial Fishing Program

Good afternoon.

I am writing to express concern on the lack of protection afforded catfishes in Illinois. Specifically, flathead catfish, blue catfish, and large channel catfish deserve some statewide protection. A recent survey found catfish anglers felt catfish fisheries management deserved more attention. (Illinois had the largest number of responses.)

In the American Fisheries Society survey, only 2% of agency experts indicated they devoted resources to manage trophy catfish fisheries. This survey found 75% of catfish anglers were in favor of developing trophy fisheries. In addition, 66% of catfish anglers were unsatisfied with the amount of effort their state directed toward catfish management. They felt management should direct more attention toward catfish fisheries, including more stringent regulations. (*1)

We must preserve our current populations of larger fish, and help protect less abundant species. Trophy catfishing is a fast growing sport. Flatheads and "blues" are often sought after as trophy fish in waters like the Rock, Fox, and Mississippi rivers. Since anglers and commercial fishermen still pursue blue and flathead catfish as "meat fish," protecting larger specimens is essential. Illinois should follow other states, where sport fishing for catfish is also high in popularity, and develop a trophy fishery for catfish. Regulations could still allow fairly generous harvest of abundant, smaller channel catfish Catfishermen should practice more catch and release, especially with larger fish. Smallmouth bass enthusiasts are united about preserving their fisheries. Catfishermen may need more help.

A number of factors influence Illinois catfish numbers. Catfish are probably the most pursued Illinois sport fish, based on hours spent fishing. (The Illinois DNR ranks the catfish as second most popular.) Larger channel catfish specimens (over 8 pounds) have become rare. Channel cats are heavily harvested in many streams like the Rock, Kaskaskia, Mississippi, Fox and Illinois rivers. Many setline fishermen take as many catfish as possible regardless of size. Catfish populations are apparently thriving in waters with the least catfishing pressure (i.e. Kankakee, Iroquois, and Spoon rivers.) While some lakes have numbers of larger catfish, their numbers in rivers and streams often appear to be in decline. Catfish are native to the rivers and streams of the Prairie State. Considering rivers such as the Illinois and Fox have made an "ecological comeback" in recent years, populations of older (larger) fish should be increasing. Due to increasing fishing pressure and harvest, the time to act to preserve current fisheries is before they show further decline.



Commercial fishing and setline methods.... Some additional regulation would help preserve our fishery. I support a 25-30 hook limit for all unattended fishing devices.

I recommend prohibiting capture of blue catfish and flathead catfish by commercial harvest. The biggest and rarest catfish become concentrated during cold water periods, where they are easily targeted by commercial fishermen. An additional suggestion would be restricting commercial fishing to the Mississippi, Ohio, and Wabash rivers.

Commercial fishing has naturally tapered off in recent years. Catfish farms are more than capable of producing enough catfish. In addition, as Larry Cofer put it, "Commercial fishing amounts to farming on public ground, where private profit for a few may come at the expense of the fishing success of many." (*2) Promoting continued commercial fishing is not unlike efforts to promote continued barge transport, even though highway and rail transports are often more efficient.



Species specific recommendations



Channel Catfish
Consider some statewide regulation of channel catfish harvest. Large channel catfish should qualify for protection. For example, large catfish over 24" are limited to one a day on the Red River of the north in Minnesota and Pony Express lake in Missouri to preserve those fisheries. The Illinois River could certainly benefit from additional management like this. In lakes where populations of larger catfish are doing well (Heidecke Lake, Baldwin Lake, Carlyle Lake, Shabbona Lake) limiting large Channel Catfish harvest would preserve these fine fisheries.

Flathead Catfish
In addition to prohibiting capture by commercial fishermen, I propose a statewide daily limit (ie 1 per Day) for flathead. A stringent annual limit on taking especially large specimens would be great. A major concern is the vulnerability of large catfish in wintering locations. A closed "winter season" is another recommended management option.



Blue Catfish
In most streams blue catfish are rarely present due to dam construction. Efforts to reintroduce blue catfish combined with future modifications of existing dams to allow migration would restore some blue cat fisheries. These efforts would have more success if harvest is restricted. I would propose harvest restrictions similar to flathead catfish.



ILDNR Catfish status reports

The ILDNR surveys demonstrate decline in many "flathead" and some channel catfish populations. ILDNR has indicated many populations of smaller channel cats are thriving. However, the data presented in the current survey is somewhat incomplete. For example, there are no references to flathead catfish populations in the Illinois and Fox rivers, and no data for the upper Illinois, Vermillion, Sangamon, Kankakee, Iriquois, and Embarras rivers.



ILDNR Catfish status reports (continued)

2001- KASKASKIA RIVER - Catfish populations as reflected by recent sampling reveal a slight upswing recently. Channel cats are well distributed from the river's mouth to the Lake Shelbyville dam… Although numbers were otherwise fairly consistent up and down the river, the largest fish (5-6 lbs) were found between the two Corps reservoirs near Vandalia and Cowden. …Flathead catfish are also well represented throughout the river with particularly large individuals associated with riprapped banks along the KRNP.

My Note: I seem to remember the previous survey around 1998 (?) was less encouraging. Where are the larger channel cats ? The area near Cowden probably is wild and less accessible and probably accounts for larger fish in that stretch, due to lower harvest by anglers.

DES PLAINES RIVER - Channel catfish have been making a comeback in the Des Plaines along with other sport fish species. Surveys indicate good populations near Lyons and Lockport. Anglers have also reported good results in the lower Des Plaines and some limited success around Dam #2. Sampling conducted near Golf Road in 2000 found abundant channel catfish with many larger individuals over 20 inches

My Note: Due to contamination issues, most all Des Plaines fish are released. This is a great help for the growing populations. More released catfish in other waters would help those populations also.





ROCK RIVER - The Rock River is well known as one of the State's best catfish rivers. Although abundant throughout the river, our best channel catfish samples are taken near Grand Detour. An assessment of flathead catfish in the Rock River was initiated in October 1999. Hoop net sampling resulted in the collection of 232 "flatheads", with an average length of 30 inches and average weight slightly above 16 pounds.

My note: It is understood the sampling doesn't represent "true" distribution. This is based on sampling at low waters levels where fish were "funneled" into the DNR hoop-nets. This created an unrealistically high "fish per mile" average.



Other observations

Regarding commercial fishing, 5 states banned commercial fishing on the Missouri River in 1992. This is arguably the largest river in North America. Studies have demonstrated "Angler harvest rates, and average fish size have increased following the ban." (*3) I do understand, that "Commercial fishermen are an extremely valuable resource of information." (*4) But, the growing contingent of catfish guides and sport fishermen spending many hours on the water could also provide useful data. I’m sure they would be glad to share any information to assist your efforts.

On the upper Mississippi, prior to 1985 channel catfish under 15" were legally harvested by commercial fishermen. As early as 1975, Iowa fisheries specialists found only 10% of female catfish this size were sexually mature. Starting in 1985 protection of catfish up to 15" has exceeded expectations. On Mississippi River pool 13, channel catfish harvest by sport fishermen went from a rank of 6th to 2nd. Commercial fishing harvest improved also. "The trend in commercial harvest continues to increase, thus it is doubtful the full impact of the regulation change has occurred." (*5)



Closing remarks

These studies clearly demonstrate over-harvest by sport and commercial fishermen have comprised catfish populations. People fish many, many hours to catch and release one 34 inch flathead or blue catfish, which can be at least 12 years old. As many hours as "musky" fisherman spend. Yet muskies are a valued game fish, and catfish are still considered "rough fish" and are given no more statewide protection than the abundant Carp. Given the fast growing popularity of cat-fishing, Illinois anglers don't feel this way.

When I shared a draft of my letter with other anglers, a number of fishermen requested I affix
their names to my letter also. Shawn



Sincerely,

Shawn Johnson; Roselle, IL



cc: Brent Manning, Director ILDNR

William Bertrand ILDNR

ILDNR Regional Offices

Paul Wolf, Illinois Catfish Association



*1 Arterburn/Kirby/Berry 2002. A survey of Angler Attitudes and Biologist Opinions Regarding Trophy Catfish and their Management; Fisheries (American Fisheries Society) Volume 27 No. 5

*2 Cofer,Larry 1999. Commercial Catfishing Under Pressure; Catfish Insider Volume 2 No. 4

*3 Stanovick,John S. In Press Recreational effort, harvest, and catch rates and average length of catfish on the Missouri River, Missouri, before and after the commercial fishing ban. Proceedings of the 1st International Ictalurid Symposium (Catfish 2000)

*4 Maher,Robert (as quoted by Ned Kedhe) 2002. The Commercial Fishing Conundrum; Catfish Insider Guide Volume 4 No. 2

*5 Pitlo,John,Jr. 1997. Response of upper Mississippi River channel catfish populations to changes in commercial harvest regulations. North American Journal of Fisheries Management.

[jerrydean]

Man, you guys beat anything i've ever seen. You act like every fish in the river is yours!! You act like the river is yours!! They're not!! They're not mine either!! It's public water and and if it's a legal means of harvesting PUBLIC fish, quit the crying!!!!

FLATHUNTER-- Why don't they shut down that factory you work at. I'm sure it's contributing to the pollution problem in you area and every thing east as the wind blows.

DREADNAUGHt--Why don't the GOVT shut you down for all that CRAP you put in your fields, i.e. pesticides, weed killer. That winds up in the water table, ya know.

Why dont we shut down every place that has stuff we don't like.

I don't like McDonalds--shut 'em down
I don't like watching CBS-- shut 'em down
I don't like Dodge automobiles-- shut 'em down.

All that makes about as much sense as "let's shut down all these commercial guys, they're in MY RIVER"!

Beat's all I've ever seen.:mad:

[astutzman]

why don't we allow commercial harvest of public deer then, jerrydean? I mean, they're a public resource, therefore commercial enterprises should have the right to harvest as many of them as they want, right?

I'm being sarcastic of course. The reasons for limiting commercial fishing of trophy catfish are the same reasons why we don't have commercial harvest of deer: to protect a vulnerable natural resource. Restricting commercial fishing may harm a few commercial fisherman out there, but it benefits the millions of the rest of us who fish for sport.

[Dwednuts]

Man, you guys beat anything i've ever seen. You act like every fish in the river is yours!! You act like the river is yours!! They're not!! They're not mine either!! It's public water and and if it's a legal means of harvesting PUBLIC fish, quit the crying!!!!

FLATHUNTER-- Why don't they shut down that factory you work at. I'm sure it's contributing to the pollution problem in you area and every thing east as the wind blows.

DREADNAUGHt--Why don't the GOVT shut you down for all that CRAP you put in your fields, i.e. pesticides, weed killer. That winds up in the water table, ya know.

Why dont we shut down every place that has stuff we don't like.

I don't like McDonalds--shut 'em down
I don't like watching CBS-- shut 'em down
I don't like Dodge automobiles-- shut 'em down.

All that makes about as much sense as "let's shut down all these commercial guys, they're in MY RIVER"!

Beat's all I've ever seen.:mad:
Sounds Like We have hit a nerve, LOL!!!

Why is it that every commecial fisherman can come up with all these reasons to keep doing what they do. Those guys will never convince me that they are helping the fisheries in any way shape or form.
I never said that the river was mine and I never said that those fish are mine. What makes you so sure that they are yours???? You commercial guys have lobbyist in your back pockets to help your cause and we don't, so why wouldn't we cry foul. Why not open your eyes and see the big picture!!! You are destroying our rivers and most of us don't appreciate it much.

PS never talk about a farmer with your mouth full!!!! And you need to get your facts straight before you jump on me!!!

[derbycitycatman]

From what little I know of lawmaking in the fish and wildlife departments if you want something done you need to show up at the meetings. Anyone can write letters and get signatures but imo the best thing to do is show up and present your argument and bring facts to back them up. The more you get to show up with you the better chances you have. I bet the commercial fisherman show up to protect their interests.

[JimF]

jerrydean...I for one know its my river, its his river, her river and its even your river!! More importantly is those young kids that are just starting to learn to cast, bait there own hooks and maybe even stretch the truth about the one that got away. Its thier river, thier fish and if we don't stop it now they won't have either.

A couple or so years ago the river got up around spawning time. Commercial fishermen couldn't fish the spawn like they usually do. The next year the fishing was noticeably better. More fish that were considerably larger. You can't tell me that this constant raping of the public waters does no harm!!

[eogden]

Very interesting topic. I would suggest that any good idea need some firm statistics to back it up. One way would be to require use an accurate creel survey & daily catch log for commercial fisherman. By & large what I see the commercial fishermen on the Illinois selling is Buffalo. This would be a way to verify in numbers the species being targeted. Another poin to ponder is that the commercial fishermen by be the ONLY way we may have to control the asian carp that are taking over. Its just not the Illinois & the Mississippi that they are invading. The Kaskaskia & the Wabash are being affected as well as any tributary stream on any of the big rivers. If those suckers make it into the Great Lakes via Illinois every state bordering the lakes system will be sueing the pants out of us.
I myself don't believe in hoopnets but the odds are a fish capture in one is more likely to be able to be successfully released back unharmed than a fish caught on trot lines & snag lines ever will.
By the way, Carlyle is full of snag lines set by "legal" sport fishermen & they are doing more harm in that lake than any commercial fishermen will ever do.
Eric

[JimF]

Shawn.. Is there some way that that letter can be put on the web for us to sign & forward to these law makers. This site would be a good place for that kind of stuff to take place. If not this thread, we should make one.

[JimF]

Very interesting topic. I would suggest that any good idea need some firm statistics to back it up. One way would be to require use an accurate creel survey & daily catch log for commercial fisherman. By & large what I see the commercial fishermen on the Illinois selling is Buffalo. This would be a way to verify in numbers the species being targeted. Another poin to ponder is that the commercial fishermen by be the ONLY way we may have to control the asian carp that are taking over. Its just not the Illinois & the Mississippi that they are invading. The Kaskaskia & the Wabash are being affected as well as any tributary stream on any of the big rivers. If those suckers make it into the Great Lakes via Illinois every state bordering the lakes system will be sueing the pants out of us.
I myself don't believe in hoopnets but the odds are a fish capture in one is more likely to be able to be successfully released back unharmed than a fish caught on trot lines & snag lines ever will.
By the way, Carlyle is full of snag lines set by "legal" sport fishermen & they are doing more harm in that lake than any commercial fishermen will ever do.
EricThis isn't the carp1.com site...its catfish1.com...they can have all the asian carp they want, We have not once brought carp into this thread. CATFISH CATFISH CATFISH

[eogden]

JimF
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, just point som obsrvation IMHO. I am not nessarily disagreeing with but pointing out that all good politicians like to be able to point out statistics.
Eric

[JimF]

JimF
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, just point som obsrvation IMHO. I am not nessarily disagreeing with but pointing out that all good politicians like to be able to point out statistics.
EricNo harm...No foul

[flathunter]

Jim, I agree with you 100 percent, if we dont put a stop to it now, the future dont look very good.

[Shawn]

Jerrydean, you hit the nail on the head "It's public water... it's a legal means of harvesting PUBLIC fish."

The fact that these fish are a public resource is exactly why the aspect of 40# flathead catfish being caught and sold for cents on the pound bother me. Those fish are worth a lot more to all of us in the water where I can try to catch one, and my kids, and their kids.

How long does it take to grow a trophy catfish? A heck of a lot longer than it takes to lift a hoop-net and remove from the river.

I've used this argument before, if a guy went into your state forest and started cutting down as many of the biggest trees as they wanted and selling them for firewood or to make paper, people would go absolutely nuts! But, it's legal to catch as many fish as you want of any size in most Illinois rivers. Many other states are now starting to protect catfish from unlimited harvest... check out the regulations in Missouri, Iowa, and Minnestoa.

I'm not saying fishermen shouldn't be able to keep fish that are legally caught, but what's wrong with there being some protection of the larger catfish to preserve the fishery for future anglers?

The river doesn't belong to the setliners and commercial guys either.We all have to share.

Shawn

[jerrydean]

ASTUZMAN--If the deer population, which is in the "millions", was anywhere close to the castish populations in our rivers, which is in the "billions", then there would be commerical harvest of the whitetail deer. It would be a viable form of controling the resource. But there's not "billions"of deer.

SHAWN-- They do log our state & National Forest and make paper & lumber. Do ya'll not have Forest where you are from, or have you just not been out in the woods in the past 100 years.

A little story..
My Great-grandfather grew up in Marion, La and worked at a lumber yard until he got hurt & wound up 100% blind. He ending up supporting 5 or 6 boys & a couple girls by doing odd jobs for the neighbors. One of those odd jobs was helping clean & peddle fish that a neighbor caught from the Ouachita River In NE, La.

One of his sons wound up being my Grandfather, and he started helping his dad when he was 9 or 10. He wound up making a living commerical fishing that same river and keeping clothes & food on 3 boys and a girl. He sent 2 boys and the girl to college on money made from commerical fishing...that was his job.

One of his sons wound up being my father. He started fishing with my Grandfather when he was 7 or 8. He moved to Little Rock, Ar in 1962 and he wound up making a living commerical fishing the Arkansas River & sent 2 boys to college and the other happen to be a gifted athlete and got a scholarship.:p I started fishing with my dad when I was 6 or 7 and actually remember when I was 10 or so, that we were running lines on the river one night and we hit a floating log and sheared off the lower end of the motor. We were about 2 miles above Maumelle Park and it was about 10pm. Another commercial fisherman, that we had seen through the years, but never really spoke to, was out there and happen to hear what happen & came over to help us & towed us back to our truck. That mans last name was Trew. I'm pretty sure it's the same one that's on this board. My dad only had 2 dollars on him,but he wouldn't take it. I treat everybody on the water the same way that me & my dad were treated that night.



I know there are all types of people on the board that have all different kinds of jobs, some farmers, some factory guys, some truckers, some Wal-Mart workers, and some that just get up every 6 or 7 hours the make sure the fire is still going at the Meth Lab( ya'll know who you are).

But, I don't come to your office, or store, or shop, and try to shut down your livelyhood. The way you put clothes on your kids backs & food on your table, or possibaly send them to college.

It's a commerical fisherman's job, if they do it legally, to catch catfish...it's just your HOBBY.

I'm not trying to sway anybody to take up commercial fishing, but i'm sure not trying to sway somebody from picking up a rod n' reel, either.

I don't commercial fish for a living, but i do put the money I make from it to my kids education.

[elmer]

Dont look now Jerrydean, but by the story you told, I think You are helping nail down US "hobby" fishermans point.

YOUR Great grandad, grandad and dad all seem to have done alright in providing for their families completely through commercial harvesting of a public resource.
Yet, When it came down to YOU, it appears that the fishery isnt good enough anymore to do the same.

Now Iunderstand that the rest of the story isnt being told and that perhaps you decided for a host of reasons not to follow in your ancestors footsteps. If nothing else, commercial harvesting of fish IS in fact HARD WORK.

LOOK, no one is trying to take ANYONES livelyhood away, no one is trying to or saying that your livelyhood should be "shut down".

You always have the option of purchasing a piece of property, digging a hole,filling it with water and seeding it with your own fish, and growing your very own fish to harvest. Completely legal, completely legit........but obviously a more costly and risk filled way of 'doing business'.

In your response to ASTUZMAN you hint in that you somhow believe commercial harvesters are somehow "controling a resource"....that the catfish population is somehow out of control.:confused: :confused: :confused:

You also said
SHAWN-- They do log our state & National Forest and make paper & lumber. Do ya'll not have Forest where you are from, or have you just not been out in the woods in the past 100 years.

While I am trying REAL hard to see YOUR position in the commerial harvest of ILLINOIS RIVERS CATFISH, it seems all you want to do is take potshots at those that are looking to the future of ILLINOIS catfishing. Commercially as well as for a 'hobby' as you call it.

EVERY state in this nation of ours is a bit different than even neighboring states. Logging in the Northeat and Northwest may well be a flourishing business, and probably done on many state owned acres by private business. Here in Illinois we dont have the hundreds of thousands acres of forests ripe for raping available.
What little we have left is STRICTLY protected and managed. If it wasnt, greedy tree harvesters would have surely turned the entire state into a treeless wasteland..as long as there was a dollar left to 'be made'.

I'm not trying to sway anybody to take up commercial fishing, but i'm sure not trying to sway somebody from picking up a rod n' reel, either.

And if you look really hard past the possibility that the reigns MAY be tightened a little, and big dollar LEGAL harvests MIGHT be a little harder to come by, I think you would see that most everyone that has taken part in this thread is NOT looking to "eliminate" the commercial harvesters in Illinois, but rather looking to insure the future of catfishing by taking a closer look at the impact that commercial fishing, as well as hobbyist harvesting may.........or may NOT........ have on the CURRENT and FUTURE catfish populations in OUR rivers.

I for one, would rather have our government error on the "safe side" and impose stricter guidlines on catfish harvest ACROSS THE BOARD ( comercial as well as sportsman) to ensure a decent catfish population for future generations to enjoy.

Who would it hurt? The relatively small number of commercial harvesters who are ALREADY complaining in THIS state that harvests today are nothing like they were in the good ole days?

How many would it benefit?
Now and in the future?

How many meth labs would close up shop if todays kids could go to one of our nearby rivers and actually catch fish? Decent sized fish? Just like in the good ole days?

If just ONE meth lab closed up due to lack of business or one less crack pipe was sold because someone gave a crap enough about the PUBLIC resources to look past the 'whats in it for me' BS that is far too prevelant in TODAYS world, those of us looking for tighter harvesting guidelines,here in ILLINOIS have accomplished a good....... not only for ourselves but for others.

And YOUR ultimate goal or purpose is what ???????????????????

Getting YOUR kids through school without an actual goverment hand out?












Mcdonalds, Walmart and a host of other companies are ALWAYS looking for part time help.



Leave the "public" fish for the kids.




For the record, Mcdonalds? That place you hate and want to have shut down?

That one company probably does more for our kids in one year, than the entire commericial fish harvesting industry has done for them in decades........no .........make that centuries. :rolleyes:

[Shawn]

"Shawn - They do log our state & National Forest and make paper & lumber. Do ya'll not have Forest where you are from, or have you just not been out in the woods in the past 100 years."

I think you missed my point... no one is allowed to buy a permit and clear cut every last tree are they?

In theory, it is possible an angler could buy a sport or commercial fishing and remove every last flathead catfish. I know i'm using an extreme example, it's not likely but it is possible.

And, what about preserving resources for future generations? It seems the the lobby for preserving commercial fishing is worried about what profits they can make for themselves right now. And, as Illinois Commercial Fisheries chief explained to me, the number of commercial fishing operations is getting smaller every year... but the number of devices in the water remains about the same. So, the small commercial fishing guys appear to be pushed out of business like a lot of the smaller farming operators.

We can't preserve everyone's way of life can we? Where's the outcry about all the pony express and telegraph operators who no longer have jobs? Of course, they probably learned new skills and found other jobs.

Look, I'm not saying to get rid of all commercial fishing. But why not some limits on commercial fishing, at least blues and flatheads. Think about it... when a 90 lb blue cat was taken in a hoop net near Alton Illinois, did it make the news? Maybe it should have, but it didn't. Now, when Tim Pruitt catches a record blue cat sport fishing (or even if it was only 90#) it does make the news.

Shawn

[Dwednuts]

My first question for the commecial guys is this: Is your fishing getting better over the years or is it declining??? I know that over the years you will get better at what you do so we will have to judge this on a curve, sorta!!!

There are fewer commecial fishermen every year, this is good in one way, but these are being replaced by bigger commercial fishing "companies if you will" that have all the latest technology at their disposal and could give a crap less about the future of our fisheries.
We as sport fishermen take a much much smaller toll on the fisheries than any one of these so-called other fishbusinessmen do. "I don't think it right to call them fishermen" sorry but that is just my oppinion. So they need not come here and ask me about my fishing holes or anything else in that catagory, cause they ain't gett'n squat outta me. And beleive me they are on here every day lurking in the background watching and listening to every post containing locations and such things.

This was not meant to offend anyone, just meant to Inlighten you a little!!!

[Catmaster81]

First off, it's good to see that we have so many people who actually CARE about catfish. I love catfish, and they've been my primary angling target my entire life. I've seen catfish harvested by many methods, including bank poles, trot lines, jug lines, limb lines, and hoop nets. Personally, I think the best solution is just better enforcement from the DNR. Depending on where you live, you may see a game warden every time you're on the water, or hardly ever. On the stretch of river that I fish, I used to see a game warden about twice a year (8-12 years ago). He was always courteous, and did his job enforcing the law. Back then, my family was pretty much the only ones fishing this particular stretch of river. We fished by rod and reel, and with bank poles and trotlines. We'd usually harvest about 120 cats per year, releasing flatheads over 20 lbs. and blues over 15 lbs (although those have become extremely rare). Over the last 8-10 years I have seen the game warden twice. The stretch of river is now riddled with riff-raff who have unregistered boats, an abundance of illegal bankpoles (untagged) and illegal hoop nets and who litter and steal. We are to the point where we've just about given up on running lines anymore because we've been stolen from by the riff-raff the last two times we've went. I've witnessed them running hoop nets (it's hard to tell whether they are legal or not, but if the boat's not even registered, I have a hard time believing they bought a commercial fishing license). I've seen them pull up a net with 6 flatheads over 30 lbs, and harvest them all. I've seen them pull up a net loaded with channels and blues near the spawn and keep all of those too. When I ask them why they've decided to keep ALL of the catfish, or keep the trophy flatheads, they say it's their "right" and to mind my own D&*N business. If the game warden still ran this stretch of the river a few times a year, he could weed the folks who are fishing illegally out. I've personally seen our fishing catches decline considerably as a result of having the riff-raff around. As for my feelings on hoop nets, I think if they're regulated and kept in fisheries that have a large enough population of catfish to support them, they would be alright. I do however, feel that they should be outlawed on all Illinois rivers except for the Mississippi, the Rock, the Illinois, and the Wabash. All of the other rivers (i.e. the Spoon, the Pecatonica, the Sugar, the Kankakee, the Iroquois, the Kaskaskia, the Sangamon, etc. etc.) are too easily exploited. They may have good populations of catfish now, but a well placed hoop net in these smaller to medium sized rivers can fish certain stretches of water out due to the lack of an abundance of deep holes. I do not want to see us get to the place where catfish are treated like bass (1 per day over 24" etc. ). Catfish are a completely different fish than most other gamefish in that they are hearty breeders, and can sustain larger populations. Catch and release only on fish over 20 lbs. would be alright with me, but The ones that are 5-15 lbs are good skillet greasers. The bottom line is we need better enforcement of our current laws, and better angling ethics as a whole. Don't take what you won't eat, and practice C & R on trophy fish. A final note, don't take me calling someone "riff-raff" the wrong way. In my mind, if you can't abide by the laws, then you are "riff-raff" period.

[Dwednuts]

A final note, don't take me calling someone "riff-raff" the wrong way. In my mind, if you can't abide by the laws, then you are "riff-raff" period.
You were way to kind to call them "riff-raff", IMO!!! these sub-humans are the scurge of the river and should be reported to the authorities every chance that you get!!!!

They nothing More than POACHERS!!!

[catfish joe]

:0a34: we need to get a delagation to gether and start lobbin state and federal govn. thats what our congressmen and represinatives are for push to save the trophies........... And the poachers....... With poachin deer or other wild game they are really strict i think they sould be the same with the water ways also i fish the Ohio river in Louisville and all the times ive been fishing ive seen 1 game warden when diffently need to do somthin bout this problem or the cat's will end up like the Bufflo and grizzlies almost gone for ever...............:thumbsup:

[barnold]

It seems to me that the problem is not the way that cats are taken as much as the fact that they are not considered game fish and therefore open to exploytation. In Ill. all cats under 15in caught in nets are to be immeaditly returned to the water. Not always happening and that is hurting. Also If you see someone using commercial devices that aren't legal, tagged and licenced . call the game wardens. If we lobby for protection of the catfish as a sport fish and report violators maby we can keep the resourse from being destroyed.

[JimF]

(Quote) CatMaster81..I do however, feel that they should be outlawed on all Illinois rivers(Quote)..... You should have stopped there,....We need to outlaw all commercial harvest of catfish on all public waters and yes they should be treated like bass, walleye,crappie and bluegill.( just to name a few) You can't sell any of those fish! Commercial fishing has raped, slaughtered and murdered all in the name of private profit. We can not pick & choose a few lakes or rivers that can be. A state wide ban on all commercial catfishing is the only way.....If we give an inch they will take a mile. when was the last time you caught a channel over 20lbs......... I have never!

1 cat over 27"
No more than 6 per day
1 flathead
1 blue

NO NETTING OF ANY KIND

[jerrydean]

Man, ya'll sound like ya'll got a problem with a bunch of outlaws, not a bunch of commercial fisherman.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that not many people that responded to this thread actually KNOW a commercial fisherman. That's not how they fish, at least not here in Arkansas.

I'll leave ya'll alone now.

[JimF]

Man, ya'll sound like ya'll got a problem with a bunch of outlaws, not a bunch of commercial fisherman.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that not many people that responded to this thread actually KNOW a commercial fisherman. That's not how they fish, at least not here in Arkansas.

I'll leave ya'll alone now.We have a problem with commercial fishermen not outlaws. We have a problem with anyone selling catfish that are takin from public waters. As for you being on a limb,... I know many people that commercial fish. One was a long time friend of the family, he passed away about a year ago. He sold fish for years. Supported his family until about 10 years ago, he had to open a bait store just to make a dollar. he told me that he just couldn't make a living fishing anymore. Claims he was doing the same thing he had always done. He just couldn't understand why.
As for how they do it Arkansas, I bet they catch them in nets and sell them.Thats what commercial fishermen do.

[elmer]

In response to the "unregistered" boats catmaster mentioned............

Dont be so sure that those boats are 'unregistered".

The DNR in Illinois is FAR understaffed. I myself bought a boat last year and waited almost 5 months to get my new registration stickers. As long as the paperwork was filled out, and sent in to the DNR, I was able to use the copy of the application on board to use my boat.......LEGALLY.......without a current sticker.
To someone that didnt see a current sticker affixed to my boat, I too may have APPEARED to be operating an unregistered boat, but was completely legal.


As far as enforcement by the DNR........Again they are WAYYYYYYYYYY understaffed due in large part, to budget cuts..... little operating money.


Now a "smart government" (if there is such a thing) would look for a way to add a few bucks to their operating budget.

What better way than to crack into the commercial harvesters ( Profiteers)piggybanks a little more.

Take that $30 a year license fee....which by the way translates to a whopping 8 Cents a day:crying: ....yep 8 cents a day :eek: ................and crank er up to $3000.

I can hear the roar of the commercial harvesters now.... no way...screw you.....blah blah blah.

At $3000 a year, that would STILL translate to a MERE $8.21 a day.............lets call that rent.
I mean after all, they ARE using “public” property to conduct their business. At $8 a day that translates to only $240 a month……………… TRY to rent ANY commercial property for under $250 a month.
Lets NOT forget the inventory………Most any business has to pay for inventory to sell.

A commercial Harvester?????

Inventory is included in the above mentioned “rent”…….they just have to look for it a little harder.


WHAT A RACKET!!!!!!!!!

Many “Public” fishing areas have concessions at them…bait sellers….boat rentals…


My money is on the fact that they are paying WAY more than the commercial harvesters 8 CENTS A DAY to the state to conduct their business on “Public” property


I want to pay the state the same pitiful $30 A YEAR, to rent one of their buildings somewhere, have them supply the stock……and pocket the profits from such a setup.


DANG……….. wade a minit!

They already have another program kinda like the commercial harvesters arrangement………






Hmmm Quit the REAL jobs, kick off the shoes and COLLECT WELFARE while WE go fishing.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[elmer]

Man, ya'll sound like ya'll got a problem with a bunch of outlaws, not a bunch of commercial fisherman

The "problem" we have isnt just a bunch of outlaws, or even simply commercial harvesters.............Its the fact that the harvesting of catfish in Illinois is unregulated.

The funny part(Ok NOT funny but TELLING) is that whenever a discussion is brought up to put stricter regulations in place to help insure a more plentiful and larger catfish population now and in the future........guess who the naysayers are 90 PLUS % of the time................

The "hobbyist" fisherman?

The sportsman?

NOPE

The profiteers..........the smoke blowers..........The Commercial Harvesters:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I'll leave ya'll alone now

THANKS!

I didnt really understood why YOU, a commercial Harvester from Arkansas would be concerned about Illinois catfishing regulations anyways;)

[JimF]

Elmer..... That is a good way to look at it...8 cents a day... thats too cheap.... $8.00 a day is too cheap....to me $1000.00 a day is too cheap. We the public get nothing from it. It doesn't even pay for the gas in the DNR boat to go check them out.

[JimF]

You da man elmer

[greenwing7]

now this thread refers only to HOOP NETS (somthing I don't know too much about) but the problem is that they catch too many LARGE fish where a slat box tends to catch much smaller fish, thus since there are no regulations on large fish, the large fish are caught in hoopnets much more than other forms of commercial fishing. When I went to school in Mississippi a friend had a Fish trap (wooden) an he only caught smaller catfish

[JimF]

now this thread refers only to HOOP NETS (somthing I don't know too much about) but the problem is that they catch too many LARGE fish where a slat box tends to catch much smaller fish, thus since there are no regulations on large fish, the large fish are caught in hoopnets much more than other forms of commercial fishing. When I went to school in Mississippi a friend had a Fish trap (wooden) an he only caught smaller catfish This tread was started with hoopnets in mind, but the real problem is the sell of catfish taken from public waters.
You see, If nothing is done about the senseless rape of the public waters, there will be nothing to pass down to our kids.Commercial fishing for catfish must be stopped!!

[wendell]

Jerrydean your right. They are a bunch of alarmist that has no clue about commercial fishing.I find it alarming that these people with one swipe of the pen would want to take away someones livelyhood.There attitude of my way or no way is also alarming. Fact no amount of whining will get commercial fishing outlawed in illinois at least in our lifetime.BTW i no longer commercial fish.

[JimF]

Jerrydean your right. They are a bunch of alarmist that has no clue about commercial fishing.I find it alarming that these people with one swipe of the pen would want to take away someones livelyhood.There attitude of my way or no way is also alarming. Fact no amount of whining will get commercial fishing outlawed in illinois at least in our lifetime.BTW i no longer commercial fish.Why did you stop commercial fishing? Did you not read my posts.I do have a clue. I have seen it done and talked to people that do it. How many clues do you think we need. Not trying to take away someones livelyhood, they can have all the bighead carp they want. Or they can buy a pond and fill it up with water and sell as many fish as they want, just like cows, pigs, chickens, goats or any number of things that farmers sell. They need to be catfish farmers not the river rapers that they have always been. Its time for a change, I for one would like it to start now.

[jerrydean]

As bad as hate to say it,..I think I could use the money. Even if all they give me is equipment from BPS or Cabelas, I would sell it on e-bay
__________________
What we've got here is failure to communicate


Above is JimF's response to "what would you do if you caught world record catfish".

Ain't nothing worse that a hypocrite. You sit on the front row on Sunday morning, JimF??:rolleyes:

[astutzman]

Everybody needs to calm down. There's no reason to get on here and bash someone else's profession/hobby/views. Everyone's going to have their own opinions about this, but there's no reason to be starting anything negative.

There are positive and negative qualities about all things. We have to keep this in mind when we're talking about controversial subjects like this one.

[jerrydean]

I'm just messin' around, man. Sorry about the post. Moderator has my permission to remove my post. Jerry Dean.

[jerrydean]

Hey, I got my 20th post!! Everybody that PM me to help them on finding a great place to buy Commercial gear, PM me back. I'll be able to answer ya now.;)

[JimF]

jerrydean...I know we will never agree on this, so I guess you are right. If selling one fish in my lifetime makes me a hypocrite, then I would be, IF I caught the world record. Because I'm getting close I'm within a 100lbs or so. But I would not sell it if was not the world record, because nobody wants one 10lbs shy of the record. Except the guys you sell to, they will buy anything, 2lbs or 200lbs. I guess you are right a whore is a whore. We are just bickering about the price.

[Fishhead1]

Hi guys.



First off... I didn't make it all the way through the thread so sorry if I'm repeating stuff that’s been said.



I'd like to offer some numbers and facts for you guys and so you can then decide for yourself if we know what to do with the catfish fishery.



Every year Rob Maher (or Williams before him) produces a commercial catch report for the State of Illinois, it's probably available upon request. They have data going back 50+ years for the whole state. In some areas like the Illinois River we have data going back to the late 1800s.



Fact #1 Did you know the Illinois River was the most productive river in the world in terms of commercial harvest in the 1890s? The commercial fishery on the Illinois River harvests an order of magnitude LESS fish now than they did around 1900s. There are several reasons for this we have less fish due to dams, levees, farming the floodplains, pollution, etc. and far fewer commercial fishermen and less demand for river fish as food.



Fact #2 Technology hasn't really helped commercial fishermen. The same techniques and nets are used today were used 150 years ago. The state has outlawed several fishing techniques and gears that are too effective. The main thing Technology has helped was lost nets (now GPS) which became fish death traps, and better transportation (i.e. less wasted harvest).



Fact #3 there is a size limit on catfish commercially harvested. >15" (plate sized). Some states are even smaller. This ensures that fish will get at least 1 spawn off before they grow into harvestable size.



Fact #4 Recently, there have been approx. 7-10 full time commercial fisherman on the Illinois river and another 50ish part time (part time = don't sell fish, but catch over 1000 lbs). The annual harvest of channel catfish on the Illinois River has ranged from 135-200,000 lbs in recent years.



For reference 450-650,000 lbs of buffalo, 750-1+ mill lbs of Asian carp are harvested each year on the Illinois River. In fact, 1 commercial fisherman has caught 49,000 lbs of Asian carp in 1 set.



Fact #5 Supply and Demand. Not much of a demand for river catfish. Most are sold to local markets or restaurants. Farm raised fish tastes better to most and is cheaper to put on the plate. When catfish are easily harvested (during spawn) the market is flooded, prices fall, so commercial fisherman don't put as much effort to harvest the catfish. They may bring in 1-3 nets to fill their quota for the week instead of 10-13 nets. The quota doesn't change from week to week, just how much effort is required. Of course this looks bad if you happen to see a net packed full of fish and assume it's always like that.


Fact #6 If you look at data from the Long Term Resources Monitoring Program (Illinois River Biological Field Station) over the last 10+ years they are finding an increase in the number of channel catfish in the LaGrange reach of the Illinois River. This same reach is the one that is commercially fished the most.


Fact #7 these aren’t closed systems. As I write this, the wicket dams are down on the Illinois river, fish are moving up and down stream 100s of miles naturally restocking populations. There are more fish out there than any of us can imagine. Yes there could be more fish, but changing any 1 thing like farming practices, leveeing the floodplains, pollutants, restoring backwaters would be 100 times more effective than stopping the take from commercial fishermen.


That is just a bit of the information out there and it’s what the managers have to rely on to make management decisions. They can’t close down a commercial fishery just because Uncle Buck says the fishing used to be better “back in the day”. The numbers show different.


Now for my thoughts/opinions. You won’t close down the commercial fishery, but you might.. just might, with good organization of catfish clubs and tournaments (and local businesses that make money from these organizations and events hotels, bait shops, boat sales, etc) be able to “protect the trophy fishery”.

Propose something like a commercial catfish slot-size limit of >15” and then a maximum size of 50 lb blue, 40 lb flathead and 15 lb channel catfish. The loss of the very large fish won’t hurt the commercial fishermen much, those are the main fish fishermen are concerned about, it protects the genetic stock of the trophy fish and everyone will be happy.


Now discuss. :rolleyes:

[Fishhead1]

Boy that's a heck of a 1st post on the new boards.

[JimF]

:0a25: First off.. welcome to the BOC and I mean that, I really do. I appreciate your input.

Second.. Your state in Fact#1 that the harvest is less now, than in the 1900s, then you say that Uncle Buck says it was better " back in the day" The numbers show different.... which is it??Less now or back in the day?

In Fact#3 As for one spawn,.. Will a Flathead or a Blue reach sexual maturity in 15"?? I don't know.Maybe a biologist will reply to this tread and tell me.

In Fact #4 7-10 full time commercial fishermen,... Do the math... even on a good year... 200,000lbs @ .75cents a pound is $150,000 divide that by 10 commercial fishermen, its $15,000 a year per can't live very well on that. The commercial fisherman I know has a new truck,car and big house. He also supplies 1 of many restaurants with 200lbs of fillets a week.That's a lot of fish,.. for just one restaurant(10,400lbs a year).

Fact #5 They may bring in 1-3 nets, but the rest are still out there fishing, for how long, I don't know. How long will catfish live in these hoop nets?( 3, 4, 6, weeks) then they pull them in and sell them.
Let me run this by you. If I were a commercial fisherman and I had to report how many fish I caught. What would I (you) do. If I reported all the fish I caught, wouldn't I have to pay more in taxes?? I think a lot of guys would not report all the fish they caught. Its kind of a cash and stash business. If I thought that, if I reported all the fish I caught and there was a chance that by doing so, it might reduce the amount that I could harvest, I might not report all the fish i caught.

As for your Facts, I believe that you can read & retain what you read.I think you can't believe all that you read, in a case like this.
How long has it been since you have caught a 50lb blue or a 40lb Flathead on a rod and reel.

6 cats per day is all that anyone needs to keep!

I know that you will that this personally, don't, Its not about you.
Once again welcome to the BOC ( brotherhood of cat fishermen) Not the Brotherhood of commercial fishermen.

JimF

[Fishhead1]

Don't worry I'm not taking it personal, debate done civilly is a good thing.

"Second.. Your state in Fact#1 that the harvest is less now, than in the 1900s, then you say that Uncle Buck says it was better " back in the day" The numbers show different.... which is it??Less now or back in the day? "

I'm assuming Uncle Buck isn't 100+ years old. Since the Clean water act in the 1970s the fish populations and the general health of the Illinois River has increased dramatically. Pre-1930s the Illinois River was one of the most productive rivers in the world. After the 1930s the dams went in, levees were built, farming was increased in the floodplains, and the Illinois river was connected to Lake Michigan, basically to flush all of Chicago's sewage down stream (how nice of them). The IL River was a carp infested sewer in the 50s-70s and only a few backwaters provided good fish habitat.


"In Fact#3 As for one spawn,.. Will a Flathead or a Blue reach sexual maturity in 15"?? I don't know.Maybe a biologist will reply to this tread and tell me."

I'm not a commercial fisher, I'm a fisheries biologist. :) Catfish maturity is dependent on several variables (north, south, river, lake, etc). 15" is considered the upper limit for channel catfish that can mature at 10-15", and the lower limit for Flatheads and Blues. If managers wanted to target Flats and blues specifically they'd likely raise the minimum size, but again there is no data showing that catfish populations are on the decline, and what little data we do have is pointing to increasing populations.

The original post on this thread was about the IL river. Blue catfish are hardly caught or harvested on the IL river and flathead harvest is in the 30,000 lbs range, which isn't very much for an annual take. The annual harvest for the Miss. River (IL waters) is also pretty small for blues and flats (90-150,000 lbs) and the vast majority of them come from the Open River (below L&D 26). There are very few commercial fishers relative to the amount of river down there and the river is open from Alton to the Gulf of Mexico, which also includes the Ohio River and Missouri River. That's a huge stock of fish and 100,000 lbs of fish a year is a drop in the bucket.

"In Fact #4 7-10 full time commercial fishermen,... Do the math... even on a good year... 200,000lbs @ .75cents a pound is $150,000 divide that by 10 commercial fishermen, its $15,000 a year per can't live very well on that. The commercial fisherman I know has a new truck,car and big house. He also supplies 1 of many restaurants with 200lbs of fillets a week.That's a lot of fish,.. for just one restaurant(10,400lbs a year).

Let me run this by you. If I were a commercial fisherman and I had to report how many fish I caught. What would I (you) do. If I reported all the fish I caught, wouldn't I have to pay more in taxes?? I think a lot of guys would not report all the fish they caught. Its kind of a cash and stash business. If I thought that, if I reported all the fish I caught and there was a chance that by doing so, it might reduce the amount that I could harvest, I might not report all the fish i caught. "

You're assuming those commercial fishermen are only fishing for catfish. No commercial fisherman I know only fishes for catfish. Buffalo is where the money is at 3,000,000 lbs harvested (another million lbs in carp) annually for the state, versus 6-800,000 of 3 catfishes combined.

It is known that under reporting catch can and does happen, whether it's simply rounding numbers or blatant under reporting. However, the Feds have been running stings the last 5 years and cleaned it up a lot. I don't think fishermen are doing blatant under reporting otherwise they risk an audit. In 2002, the reported total catch for the IL Riv was $340,000. That value is based on average prices, so if a guy has a good contract ($0.75 a lb is on the high end for catfish) then that number is actually lower than the actual money made by the fishermen. Also consider, of the 10 or so "full time" (meaning they sell some fish for money) most of that money is going to 3 or 5 individuals who catch most the fish and who are fishing 7 days a week 20 hrs a day. I'd imagine the top guys are making damn good money.


"Fact #5 They may bring in 1-3 nets, but the rest are still out there fishing, for how long, I don't know. How long will catfish live in these hoop nets?( 3, 4, 6, weeks) then they pull them in and sell them."

I was thinking more along the lines of instead of setting 10 nets to fill your quota for catfish, they could set 3 nets for catfish, and 7 for buffalo which they can always sell. Or perhaps it's more realistic in days of the week. It is against the law for them to leave their nets out unattended, I "think" they have to check them daily or every other day. I forget which. Some small time joker might leave his nets out longer, but the big operation guys check them daily and get the catch back to be processed ASAP. If they leave the fish in the nets they loose weight quickly... which means the fisherman is loosing money.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the reasons I jumped in this thread is because I had the same concerns and over the last year and a half I've been looking at commercial fishing catch data and comparing it to our scientific monitoring trying to see if we can detect any problems. So in a nutshell I've done a lot of thinking about this as well, I've done literature searches, even studied commercial fisheries in marine systems and I have run various analysis’s. There just isn't any data showing that commercial fishing is hurting catfish populations. But I'm going to keep watching it in the future and do my part to make sure it remains that way.

Commercial fishing is a very hard way to make a living, especially a good living, and I think that's the reason there has been less and less fishermen over the years. I'm hoping that sometime in the near future there will be a demand for the Asian carp and that fishermen will put more effort to catch them and less on the other species.

I love fishing and hunting and I want to protect those resources, which is why I went to school for years (even though I never liked school much ;) ) and why I stay in my job even though I make lousy money. I really would hate to see our fishery hurt whether its commercial fishermen or a new lock and dam system, and I won't hesitate to speak up if I have knowledge it's happening.

This is why I'd hate to see wasted efforts trying to close the commercial fishing for catfish, I just don't see it happening. However, I personally would love to see what I suggested before.

"Now for my thoughts/opinions. You won’t close down the commercial fishery, but you might.. just might, with good organization of catfish clubs and tournaments (and local businesses that make money from these organizations and events hotels, bait shops, boat sales, etc) be able to “protect the trophy fishery”.

Propose something like a commercial catfish slot-size limit of >15” and then a maximum size of 50 lb blue, 40 lb flathead and 15 lb channel catfish. The loss of the very large fish won’t hurt the commercial fishermen much, those are the main fish fishermen are concerned about, it protects the genetic stock of the trophy fish and everyone will be happy."

[jerrydean]

You da man Eric G:thumbsup:

That was the first educated comment i've seen on this topic. It's refreshing to see someone that knows the TRUTH, instead of someone that can't figure out that they're fishing in the wrong spot at the wrong time of year and just plain don't have a clue what they are doing...but blame it on commercial guys...who do know the right spots at the right time of year that DO know how to catfish. A lot of people fish the same spot ALL THE TIME and wonder why they can't catch anything. The fish haven't been caught out. They've moved. Put some time in & find them. I do. I won't go 2 days without catching all I can sell. I know where they are all 12 months of the year. That comes with experience, though.

Oh, and welcome to the BOC... where the commercial fisherman is ALSO a fisherman.:p

[JimF]

Eric G,.... another great post. This may be the first time I agree with something jeerydean has to say on this thread.Your comments are educated & refreshing. I have asked for help with this thread before. Thanks for the help. I have not nor will I state that all commercial fishing needs to stop.Catfish need to be treated like the sport fish they are. I just want catfish to be protected like bass, walleye, crappie and even bluegill are protected more than catfish. They can have all the buffalo and asian carp they want. This thread is and has always been dedicated to catfish.
I also agree that the dams, levees,farming the floodplains and all the raw sewage from Chicago was / is the wrong thing to do. When the great flood of 93 took out all the levees, you didn't see me with a shovel filling sand bags. I said it then I will say it now, that's just mother nature's way of taking back what is rightfully hers.
Wecome to the BOC

[Fishhead1]

Ya I was really hoping the 93 flood would teach us a lesson, but we (the public) and our Govt has a very short term memory it seems.

Case in point.... New Orleans.

[Shawn]

I have to take any catch data reported by fishermen (commercial or sport) with a grain of salt…

I have more confidence in DNR studies, because they’re based on scientific methods, and the biologists doing the studies don't have a financial stake in the results being reported. Even on the largest rivers, studies have shown commercial fishing can have a negative impact on catfish. And remember, Illinois didn't really study flathead catfish prior to the late '90s. Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying commercial fishing should be banned. But, I would be in favor of some limits, especially on taking flathead and blue cats.

Shawn
----------------------------------------------------------------------

On the upper Mississippi, prior to 1985 channel catfish under 15” were legally harvested by commercial fishermen. As early as 1975, Iowa fisheries specialists found only 10% of female catfish this size were sexually mature. Starting in 1985 protection of catfish up to 15" has exceeded expectations. On Mississippi River pool 13, channel catfish harvest by sport fishermen went from a rank of 6th to 2nd. Commercial fishing harvest improved also. "The trend in commercial harvest continues to increase, thus it is doubtful the full impact of the regulation change has occurred."
(Pitlo,John,Jr. 1997. Response of upper Mississippi River channel catfish populations to changes in commercial harvest regulations. North American Journal of Fisheries Management. )



5 states banned commercial fishing on the Missouri River in 1992. Studies have demonstrated "Angler harvest rates, and average fish size have increased following the ban.
(Stanovick,John S. In Press Recreational effort, harvest, and catch rates and average length of catfish on the Missouri River, Missouri, before and after the commercial fishing ban. Proceedings of the 1st International Ictalurid Symposium Catfish 2000.)

[Dwednuts]

This is what I stated earlier in this thread. Commercial guys will find any type of study or (story) to back them up or make themselves look like what they are doing is good for the fisheries.

[gooboy]

man these posts sure do get heated up when it comes to commercial fishing. i hope to be able to put my 2 cents in and not get bashed from both sides of the fence.
first i want to state that i commercial fished for several years on the red river in northwest louisiana. the last few years i have slowly tappered off. last year i never set a net. several reasons for this.
#1-i don't need the money
#2-my joints are getting wore out and pullin' nets just plain ain't "fun" no more and
#3-i've learned how to take all the fish i want by recreational means.
am i against commercial fishermen now that i don't do it anymore? absolutely not! but what i am against is the lack of laws governing this business and the lack of law enforcement agents.
we have some very small creeks around my house that commercial fishing is allowed on. you can forget about catching any fish on them by recreational means. i wish they would ban the commercial harvest from all the small bodies of water. how small? if it ain't a big river;miss.;red;atchafalaya;etc. then it shouldn't have a commercial harvest allowed. it has destroyed the recreational catfishing on the small waters. the size limits are 11in on channel, 12in on blue, and 14 on flats. that don't leave much in these small creeks.
now in the red that i fish, the fisheries is unreal. we have 6 full time commercial guys that catch tons and tons of fish annually out of the areas that i fish. i know these guys fairly well. all but one are pretty good folks. any blues over 30 pounds, and flats over 40 are released for lack of a market on them. 5 out of 6 of these guys do this. the one that doesn't turn them loose is just an idiot. unfortunately he is also the most productive of all the commercial guys. i've seen him with 70 pound blues in his boat and asked him what he's gona do with them. he has told me point blank "i don't throw nothing back". i found out later that if he can't sell them, he uses them for turtle bait. man, what a waste. i sure wish he would move back to the great state of Illinois where he came from.
what i would like see done is to put a maximum size on the cats. there is not a good market for them and they should stay in the gene pool anyway.

so to answer the question "hoopnets-what are the impacts on catfish". my answer is that in small bodies of water, when used by a knowledgeable person, they can be devastating to the catfish population. the large bodies of water (in louisiana- i don't know about other states)can withstand large commercial harvests but they should be regulated to the amount of trophy size fish they can keep.

just my 2 cents. thats what makes this such a great site. the disagreements. if we all thought alike, it sure would get boring!:)

[elmer]

man these posts sure do get heated up when it comes to commercial fishing


I said it before, Ill say it again.............
The funny part(Ok NOT funny but TELLING) is that whenever a discussion is brought up to put stricter regulations in place to help insure a more plentiful and larger catfish population now and in the future........guess who the naysayers are 90 PLUS % of the time................

The "hobbyist" fisherman?

The sportsman?

NOPE

The profiteers..........those they keep and .........the smoke blowers..........


Im NOT totally against commercial harvesting. I believe the harvesters DO have a place in OUR public waters.

As catfishing popularity continues to grow, so will the numbers of people that seek out the thrill and or challenges catfishing presents. The "data" is there that shows the growing popularity of persuing our whiskered friends.

Its been said that Buffalo and carp are where the Illinois river commercial harvesting money is at. Most will agree that unlike catfish, neither has any real potential to become a species heavily sought after by sportfisherman, while one particular species of carp threatens to overtake the river. There seems to be a market for that species ( albeit fairly small at this time).

If the commercial harvesters want the carp and buffalo, I say let them have em.....especially in light of those species being a rarely sought after fish by sportsmen. They ( harvesters) will still make some money and provide a GOOD for the rivers and lakes.

On the other hand, allowing the harvest of EVERY catfish over 15 inches to be taken for private business profit, helps who or what?


Eric, under the guise of a "concerned fisheries biologist", advises organized groups of catfisherman submit his suggested proposal, that would in reality, change little to NOTHING in regulations on the books now.

Sorry Eric If I am reading you wrong, but from your posts, I am guesiing you would like nothing more than a group of SPORT catfisherman to propose new regulations as you outlined. :crying: :crying: :crying:

As a fisheries biologist, perhaps you can give us some ACCURATE data to "think it over"

Realistically and honestly how many 40 PLUS pound Flatheads are caught yearly in the Illinois river?
What is the density per river mile of fish that size....TODAY.... in the Illinois river?
How long would it take a Flathead to attain that size through Average Illinois river conditions?
What percentage of newly hatched Illinois river flathead eggs WILL grow to be a 20 pound fish? Thirty? Fourty?

How about Channel Cats In the Illinois?

Realistically and honestly, how many 15 PLUS pound channels are caught yearly in the Illinois river?
What is the density per river mile of fish that size....TODAY.... in the Illinois river?
How long would it take a channel to attain that size through Average Illinois river conditions?
What percentage of newly hatched Illinois river channel cat eggs WILL grow to be a 5 pound fish? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty?

Im not a biologist, nor a commercial harvester.

I am first and foremost a concerned human being. My concerns stretch beyond my immediate family and what they might wish to 'take' from our river.


Jerry Dean,

You say:
That was the first educated comment i've seen on this topic. It's refreshing to see someone that knows the TRUTH, instead of someone that can't figure out that they're fishing in the wrong spot at the wrong time of year and just plain don't have a clue what they are doing...but blame it on commercial guys



Erics posts while entertaining are far from the whole truth, or entirely Factual.

You like a confused blonde teenaged cheerleader cheer him on, COMPLETELY unaware of who or what, let alone why you are even cheering ...........other than it 'sounded favorable' to you somehow.:rolleyes: All giddy, you AGAIN.......have NOTHING constructive to add to the discussion so you AGAIN take potshots at those whos views differ than yours.
All the while, from, and in, a completely different State than the river being discussed......The ILLINOIS RIVER.
Give it a rest.:mad:

[elmer]

Eric, interesting history lesson......kinda

In your "FACTS" you seem to have forgotten to mention what REALLY caused a major decline in fish populations in th early 1900's on the Illinois river.You also seem to have forgotten to add in a few well know widely published FACTS, that on the surface appear to blacken the eyes of Illinois river Commercial harvesters, as a group.

Here is just one important one you 'forgot'.........

My Fact #1)
In its prime in 1908, 2000 plus commercial harvester RAPED the Illinois river of over 24 million pounds of fish.

Historically the river was critical for food supply, drinking water, industry and transportation. Native American tribes relied on the vast supplies of fish, and at the turn of the century the Illinois River supported a vast commercial fishing industry. It is estimated that there were more than 2000 commercial fisherman who harvested 25 million pounds of freshwater fish in 1908.(exerpt from Our Illinois River: A Great River in Great Peril)

That FACT is important for several reasons....

First it kinda makes your 2nd "fact" that technology hasnt aided commercial harvesters "much" in over 150 years, suspect, if not entirely laughable.

In the 1900's harvesters used rocks or other heavy objects tied to rope to determine depths, find bottom contours,channel edges etc. A LONG, SLOW tedious process.
They ROWED their boats to retrieve their 'catch", while todays harvester uses one of them thare fancy internal combustion engine things, complete with proppellors to make running set of nets.......Just a "LITTLE" quicker.
Time is and was money. Better effeiciency equals MORE FISH per harvester.

Dont believe me? Look at your own figures.

7-10 full time harvesters (in recent years) harvest close to 2 million fish per year.

Recently, there have been approx. 7-10 full time commercial fisherman on the Illinois river............The annual harvest of channel catfish on the Illinois River has ranged from 135-200,000 lbs in recent years.
For reference 450-650,000 lbs of buffalo, 750-1+ mill lbs of Asian carp

Lets call it an even 10 harvesters for simplicitys sake and nearly 2 million pounds of fish harvested yearly.
That breaks down to close to 200,000 (Two hundred THOUSAND) pounds of fish PER harvester, harvested EACH YEAR today.

Now lets make it look even better for todays harvesters and add in those "50ish part timers" you mentioned.....60 harvesters, 2 million pounds of fish STILL works out to 33,000 (thirty three thousand) per harvester today

"Back in the day", it took 2000 FULL TIME harvesters to harvest 24 Million pounds of fish, or ONLY 12,000 (Twelve Thousand) pounds of fish EACH

What changed?
More fish per acre?.....NOPE....you said so yourself

There are several reasons for this we have less fish due to dams, levees, farming the floodplains, pollution, etc.

Men today working harder or longer than the men back in the day? I dont think so.

The answer is simple.................TECHNOLOGICAL ADVANCES to improve efficiency.....more efficiency = more fish plucked from the water using the same basic net designs of 150 years ago.:rolleyes:




My fact #1 is also important to note because a DRASTIC reduction in the fish population was noted as early as 1915, only 7 years after the Illinois rivers PEAK of HARVESTING.

You say,

The commercial fishery on the Illinois River harvests an order of magnitude LESS fish now than they did around 1900sThere are several reasons for this we have less fish due to dams, levees, farming the floodplains, pollution, etc.

YOUR colleagues “back in the day” said different………..

"We have found some remarkable evidence of overfishing at certain points, especially Meredosia Bay. This area has been seined so steadily and generally that fish resorting there have been pretty well cleared out." - Fisheries scientist, 1915 (excerpt From the Illinois State Museum website.)

You seem to suggest pollution, dams, Levees, FARMERS and several other reasons for a decline in fish populations in the eraly 1900's.


OVERFISHING/OVERHARVSTING all but killed the river LONG BEFORE Chicago started flushing their toilets into OUR backyards, and BEFORE Farming began on the flood plains, says at least one of YOUR OWN!:crying:



You also said:


It is known that under reporting catch can and does happen, whether it's simply rounding numbers or blatant under reporting. However, the Feds have been running stings the last 5 years and cleaned it up a lot. I don't think fishermen are doing blatant under reporting otherwise they risk an audit

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Isnt that alot like saying that drug dealing does happen, but because the feds and local government are running stings and cleaning up the mess a wee little bit, we should believe all drug dealing will stop......because drug dealers now too RISK being arrested? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


One of the reasons I jumped in this thread is because I had the same concerns and over the last year and a half I've been looking at commercial fishing catch data and comparing it to our scientific monitoring trying to see if we can detect any problems. ...... I've done literature searches......... and I have run various analysis’s.
There just isn't any data showing that commercial fishing is hurting catfish populations.


Here is some DATA to input.....

Last year, there were AT LEAST 150 THOUSAND pounds more of channel cats swimming the waters of the Illinois river.......... Until commercial harvesters pulled them from the water, killed and sold them.They are today GONE.

Lets pretend the natural population of channels cats in the Illinois river WAS 3 billion pounds a year ago today. If commercial harvesters pulled 150,000 pounds of those cats out of the water and killed them, does the 'population' somehow magically increase?

Or is it a FACT that 150,000 pounds of fish have forever been removed from the population base, and even to a small degree, that action has decreased the catfish population?



Yes there could be more fish, but changing any 1 thing like farming practices, leveeing the floodplains, pollutants, restoring backwaters would be 100 times more effective than stopping the take from commercial fishermen.

YOU SAID 7-10 full time harvesters rip 135-200,000 channel cats out of the river and kill them EACH YEAR.

Show me/us "DATA" that 7-10 farmers can and or have caused similar destruction in one year to Illinois river catfish. Show us the data that supports the same or another group of 7-10 farmers have killed 135,000 to 200,000 more channel catfish the following year.

What data is available that shows 200,000 over 15 inch catfish were killed in 2005 on the Illinois river due to a pollutant? 2004? 2003? 2002? 2001? 2000?

What data is available to show that another 200,000 15 inch or bigger channel cats were killed in the past 5 years because they couldnt get to some dried up backwater area?

While you scientists argue and collect Data about backwaters, pollutants, levees and dams,to determine thier worth EVERY YEAR 200,000 plus channel cats are killed by a KNOWN and Undisputable killer..............the commercial harvester.

Common sense seems to say lets stop the obvious killing first, and determine the BEST course of action to take to restore our river to a healthier, more natural state......just like uncle buck and them scientists said it was in the early 1900's .



That is just a bit of the information out there and it’s what the managers have to rely on to make management decisions. They can’t close down a commercial fishery just because Uncle Buck says the fishing used to be better “back in the day”. The numbers show different.

If "FACTS" like those suggested here are all that " managers" have to rely on to make decisions, The Illinois rivers Future is in deeper doo doo than any amount of Chicago Toilet flushing might have EVER provided.

[Graywolf]

All I know is that two years ago I discovered cut bait and circle hooks, after which my hookup and catch rate increased at least 90%. Also the fish were bigger. I stopped catching small fish. Also on cut bait and circle hooks i caught an 18 inch Walleye (and my friend caught a 21 incher) and an 8 or so lb. Sheephead. All on cut bait and circle hooks. Last Oct. in Ottawa I caught the biggest fish I have ever caught, a 12 lb Flathead. OK, I admit a 12 lb. Flat head is a baby (to you expert fishermen), but it sure made my year :) . So now with cut bait and circle hooks my fishing has improved dramatically and I mostly CPR. :) :)

A while back the Discovery channel had a program on commercial fishermen in the oceans. They were using HUGE hoop nets pulled behind the boats. They were catching ten of thousands of lbs. of fish :sad: . The program went on to state that a lot of people were concerned that these fishermen were raping the VAST OCEANS and could close down the fisheries. And we live on a little river!!

If it weren't for the oil industry, there would be no sperm whales and Capt. Kirk would be in our mist looking for one. Remember the sperm whale, the Buffalo, the passenger pigion...

[Rockin' Blues]

I found this under 2005 Illinois Commercial Fishing Information,Consent of Landowner-Commercial fisherman are responsible for getting permission to fish from the landowner[s]of the aforementioned waters.Which were waters open to commercial fishing.So if I understand this,and your [commercial fisherman] are using a public ramp on public water then you need the publics permission YOU dont have mine.

[wendell]

A commercial fisherman has to get permission to fish the fields in high water or in lakes along rivers.Not in the rivers.

[wendell]

BTW I have never been denied permision to set nets on private property. Take them 20 or 30 pounds of fish and they are happy.

[woollyswamper]

Seems to me you are beating the war drums for the wrong reasons. If the problem is removal of too many fish by large commercial fisherman, you need to lobby to have some scientifically supported limits on their catch. Yes, commercial fisherman numbers are dwindling because they cannot compete with imported fish from places like Vietnam which are not even catfish, but sold as such here in the states. The next generation is also not wanting to go into commercial fishing because it is hard work, long hours, poor pay, and it literally stinks. The last thing we need is to drive more american jobs overseas. If sensible limits are placed on commercial fish removed, such as numbers taken, slot limits on sizes (most restaurants do not want a 40 lb blue anyway) and waters that can be fished (larger bodies), then we can have happy rod and reel fisherman and maybe keep some american jobs in the industry too.

But if you are **** bent on making the catfish a game fish, please let me know when and where your state game and fish agencies have the public hearings. I enjoy a good bar room brawl. Here in Louisiana any handicapped person over 60 can use a hoop net for the whopping fee of $5 a year for personal use. I want to be there when you tell those handicapped fisherman, and every trotliner, jug fisherman and noodler that you are making their sports illegal so you can make catfish a gamefish that only you can catch with a rod and reel.
:cool:

[Fishhead1]

Wow, Elmer, I salute you in that you had to of spent a lot of time and energy on those posts.

However, insulting me ("Eric, under the guise of a "concerned fisheries biologist"") is quite uncalled for and I don't appreciate it. You don't know me and you surely don't know everything there is to know about these issues, so step off your high horse. I am a public servant and I choose to make crap money and be in debt up to my eyes for the good of the public and our natural resources.

Now, some of what you said were very good counter points and arguments, while most of it is simply "uninformed" to put it best. I don't claim to know all the answers, NO biologist does, it is impossible. There are too many variables at play and quite frankly the public thinks too little of our natural resources and what it takes to care for them to ever invest proper resources toward those goals. That's all the further I'll go into politics, funding, and taxes other than to say the public (and their elected officials) need to put up or shut up when it comes to the lack of information about and quality of our natural resources.

The regulations I suggested. Hey, I don't make them and I don't have a say in them. Just telling you like it is. In my opinion you will only waste time trying to close the catfish fishery, unless we have data to say that commercial fishing is hurting the populations, which we don't. I am on these boards because I enjoy catfish fishing... close the commercial fishing and I wouldn't complain, I'm just not sure it will give you better cat fishing. If you want to try and propose regulations, I made a suggestion on how you could and what might actually have a chance of happening. As you said yourself, what difference would it make? It probably won't make a bit of difference other than to make fisherman feel better that trophy fish aren't being harvested. So again in my opinion, A) nothing changes or B) they protect the trophy fish which may or may not actually translate into better fishing.



Realistically and honestly how many 40 PLUS pound Flatheads are caught yearly in the Illinois river?
What is the density per river mile of fish that size....TODAY.... in the Illinois river?
How long would it take a Flathead to attain that size through Average Illinois river conditions?
What percentage of newly hatched Illinois river flathead eggs WILL grow to be a 20 pound fish? Thirty? Fourty?

How about Channel Cats In the Illinois?
Realistically and honestly, how many 15 PLUS pound channels are caught yearly in the Illinois river?
What is the density per river mile of fish that size....TODAY.... in the Illinois river?
How long would it take a channel to attain that size through Average Illinois river conditions?
What percentage of newly hatched Illinois river channel cat eggs WILL grow to be a 5 pound fish? Ten? Fifteen? Twenty?

These are great questions, the same ones we often want to answer? Unfortunately there really isn't answers for many of them. Why? The scale of the questions are too big, sure we could theoretically get the answers but no one will foot the bill. We can get growth rates of fish easy enough by counting annuli on fin clips or otiliths and I'm pretty sure that data exists somewhere in the DNRs archives.

In its prime in 1908, 2000 plus commercial harvester RAPED the Illinois river of over 24 million pounds of fish.

Raped? Strong word, how do you know what the carrying capacity of the Illinois River was for fish back in 1908? For all we know it didn't affect a thing. I'm not saying that it couldn't or didn't drop fish populations, but again we don't know.



First it kinda makes your 2nd "fact" that technology hasnt aided commercial harvesters "much" in over 150 years, suspect, if not entirely laughable.

Lets call it an even 10 harvesters for simplicitys sake and nearly 2 million pounds of fish harvested yearly. That breaks down to close to 200,000 (Two hundred THOUSAND) pounds of fish PER harvester, harvested EACH YEAR today.

Now lets make it look even better for todays harvesters and add in those "50ish part timers" you mentioned.....60 harvesters, 2 million pounds of fish STILL works out to 33,000 (thirty three thousand) per harvester today

"Back in the day", it took 2000 FULL TIME harvesters to harvest 24 Million pounds of fish, or ONLY 12,000 (Twelve Thousand) pounds of fish EACH


Nice that you added FULL TIME harvesters there. Was that in the quote you found or simply added to prove your point? In recent years approximately 25-30% of the commercial fishermen in the state are labeled as Full and PART Time fishers. How do you know how many of the 2000 commercial fishers in 1908 are Full or Part time or recreational (i.e. putting food on the table). If you want to crunch meaningless numbers then apply that 30% to the 2000 fishers and you'll come up with them catching almost 42,000 lbs of fish per fisher in 1908 to today’s 33,000. Another perfect example of not making decisions on "suspect" data and sticking with what we actually know.


My comments on technology were in reply to another post and aimed at gear and technique of capture. A hoop net today is the same as a hoop net yesterday, same with other nets that are still used. It's still a hoop w/ string any way you cut it and technology hasn't done much there. I acknowledged that transportation is better and speeds up the process. The old commercial fishers used small barges and trains filled w/ fish, today’s guys use large jon boats. The old guys took larger amounts at a time but it took days to get them to market. Today’s guys take smaller amounts but get them to market quicker. Technology has affected the marine (oceanic) fisheries far more than ours.


YOUR colleagues “back in the day” said different………..

"We have found some remarkable evidence of overfishing at certain points, especially Meredosia Bay. This area has been seined so steadily and generally that fish resorting there have been pretty well cleared out." - Fisheries scientist, 1915 (excerpt From the Illinois State Museum website.)

You seem to suggest pollution, dams, Levees, FARMERS and several other reasons for a decline in fish populations in the eraly 1900's.

OVERFISHING/OVERHARVSTING all but killed the river LONG BEFORE Chicago started flushing their toilets into OUR backyards, and BEFORE Farming began on the flood plains, says at least one of YOUR OWN!

By today’s standards "Fisheries scientist, 1915" doesn't quite cut it, how do we know who this guy is and what his qualifications are. "remarkable evidence of overfishing" it's vague and where are the numbers? Still a nice find and I'll give it the benefit of doubt as somewhat creditable. However, it's talking about 1 backwater/bay in 100s of miles of river out of 100s of backwaters. Hardly proof that the whole Illinois River's fish populations were crashing due to commercial harvest.

Oh and nice use of ALL CAPS and BOLD PRINT to prove your point. Unfortunately, you should of dug a bit deeper in the excerpt From the Illinois State Museum website to find:

"The Chicago Sanitary and Shipping Canal was built from 1892 to 1900. The canal permitted up to 5,000 cubic feet per second of water to be diverted into the Illinois River. These levels were not enough to significantly improve navigation downstream, but it did end the need for dams at LaGrange and Kampsville. Barge traffic on the upper Illinois increased. A long-term negative impact on the central Illinois River would be the pollution from raw sewage this water carried with it."

In addition farming and leveeing were also well in effect around this same time.


Isnt that alot like saying that drug dealing does happen, but because the feds and local government are running stings and cleaning up the mess a wee little bit, we should believe all drug dealing will stop......because drug dealers now too RISK being arrested?

Wow, so commercial fishermen are being compared to drug dealers and criminals? Fudging the books is one thing, but there is no good way for commercial fisherman to be blatantly under report their catch and not leave a paper trail. Could it be better, sure, but do you or our public officials want to put the money up to manage it tighter? No, so it is what it is.


Here is some DATA to input.....

Last year, there were AT LEAST 150 THOUSAND pounds more of channel cats swimming the waters of the Illinois river.......... Until commercial harvesters pulled them from the water, killed and sold them.They are today GONE.

Lets pretend the natural population of channels cats in the Illinois river WAS 3 billion pounds a year ago today. If commercial harvesters pulled 150,000 pounds of those cats out of the water and killed them, does the 'population' somehow magically increase?

Or is it a FACT that 150,000 pounds of fish have forever been removed from the population base, and even to a small degree, that action has decreased the catfish population?


I hate to say it but thanks, you pretty much gave me the example I was looking for to explain this better.

150,000 lbs of 3,000,000,000 lbs is .006% of the population, less than a drop in the bucket.

In contrast, natural mortality rates (disease, predation, old age, etc) of channel catfish are probably 60-80%.

Along those same lines you could theorize that there are less predators today (birds, mammals, reptiles, Native Americans) and that our harvest today is even less than it was before. No way to prove it but a valid point.

Another thing you guys seem to ignore is the take of catfish from hook-n-line and trot line fisherman. Ask yourself how many fishermen there are on the Illinois River and how many fish they (you) take out of the river. Sure 1 guy may only take 100 lbs a year, but there are 1000s of fisherman out there keeping fish of all sizes. For all we know 1000s of fisherman hurt the fishery far more than the 10 commercial fisherman, I don't see anyone proposing to make it catch and release only.

All of the above leads to what we call a sustainable yield or harvest. There is a percent or ratio of most all animal / plant populations that can be harvested without influencing the population. Mother nature has built in population dynamics that allow species to survive predations, diseases, draught, flood, etc.

A good example of this is dove hunting. Doves have good and bad years of reproduction yet you never see limits changed from year to year. Studies have found that our present rate of harvest each year is far below any number that is detrimental to the population. In other words it doesn't matter what we do to the doves, it's insignificant compared to what mother nature does to the population each year. One could go to a state dove hunting area and see the slaughter of doves and assume the worst, make a big stink, but as long as biologist and managers are monitoring the population to assure there isn't a crash due to something else (i.e. bird flu), they don't have a reason to stop people from hunting doves.

Our managers of the commercial fishery believe the catch levels are still at low enough levels that it's not hurting the Illinois River. That doesn't mean the Illinois River fishery couldn't be better, but a lot of things have to happen to improve the river and catfish populations and commercial harvest is probably the least important of all of them.


YOU SAID 7-10 full time harvesters rip 135-200,000 channel cats out of the river and kill them EACH YEAR.

Show me/us "DATA" that 7-10 farmers can and or have caused similar destruction in one year to Illinois river catfish. Show us the data that supports the same or another group of 7-10 farmers have killed 135,000 to 200,000 more channel catfish the following year.

What data is available that shows 200,000 over 15 inch catfish were killed in 2005 on the Illinois river due to a pollutant? 2004? 2003? 2002? 2001? 2000?

What data is available to show that another 200,000 15 inch or bigger channel cats were killed in the past 5 years because they couldnt get to some dried up backwater area?


Very naive arguments here. How do you propose anyone prove those points? If the fish are dead or don't exist in the first place how can we show you data. I can't show you the "data" on the lost fish because the fish don't exist, because the backwaters/floodplain doesn't exist.

I'll do some fancy theory craft instead. 1 catfish can produce 20,000 eggs. Say 1000 catfish want to spawn in 1 backwater. That's 20,000,000 eggs, per year (just 1 backwater). Now in a backwater or on a floodplain those eggs can hatch, find cover and shelter from currents and predators. They also can find food much easier and grow much faster. All of which increases their survivability. Instead those eggs and young have to make it in the main channel. Predators have easy pickings, barges can kill the young, food is harder to come by, growth is slower (can be eaten by a predator for a longer amount of time). So say survivability in the 1st year decreases from 40% (800k) to 20% (400k), a conservative guess. Now extrapolate that to potentially 100s of lost backwaters and over multiple years/decades. You can see the loss in potential catfish stock is huge from the 1 factor alone.


Please don't try and claim farmers haven't impacted the river in drastic ways. Herbicides, pesticides, fertilizers, siltation, channelization of streams, tiling the land, leveeing off the floodplain. Studies have shown that siltation is the primary concern and pollutant today. Farmers are the primary reason for existence of our dams so barges can go up and down the river. How about 100,000s of acres of floodplain backwaters and wetlands drained and 1000s of acres more floodplain forests cut down? That's all critical fish habitat and spawning grounds that don't exist anymore and it affects all the fishes, birds, reptiles, amphibians and mammals... i.e. disrupted the whole river ecosystem. (I'm not anti-farmer, I just think some things could be done different and perhaps they don't need so much of our floodplains to operate)

Where commercial fisherman reduce the existing total pounds of fish in the river, Farmers (as well as other factors) have drastically reduced the health of the river reducing the carrying capacity for the river. Make the river healthy again and you wouldn't care about the small take of commercial fishermen. Another way to say it is commercial fisherman take a percentage of available fish, where all the other factors mentioned determine what the total of available fish is.

[elmer]

AGAIN......

I am NOT in favor of shutting down ALL commercial harvesting of Illinois River Fish, nor ALL comercial harvesting of catfish On The Illinois river

I AM in favor of some sort of limits........numbers and or REALISTIC slot sizes.....AGAIN..... for commercial harvest as well as sportsman harvest.


Yes, commercial fisherman numbers are dwindling because they cannot compete with imported fish from places like Vietnam

HUH?
How many tons of vietnamese "catfish" are sold here in the states?

I would think that stateside FISH FARMING has and will continue to put a damper on the public water commercial harvesting industry, far more than any imported "catfish"


The next generation is also not wanting to go into commercial fishing because it is hard work, long hours, poor pay, and it literally stinks. The last thing we need is to drive more american jobs overseas

TODAYS generation, let alone the next generation DONT/WONT..... WANT to work long hours for crappy pay and come home smelling of fish. The job description alone, is what drives the majority of people/kids away from commercial harvesting as a career.


Of course we COULD shorten the hours of work, increase their pay, and perfume up the catfish in order to keep commercial harvesting an American Job :) :) :) :)

If sensible limits are placed on commercial fish removed, such as numbers taken, slot limits on sizes (most restaurants do not want a 40 lb blue anyway) and waters that can be fished (larger bodies), then we can have happy rod and reel fisherman and maybe keep some american jobs in the industry too.

I agree with the above Except for the part about keeping American jobs. I just dont see how imposing REALISTIC slot limits will help keep, or even lure commercial harvesters to or ina a jobe that IS what it IS. Hard work that pays little and literally stinks.

Here in Louisiana any handicapped person over 60 can use a hoop net for the whopping fee of $5 a year for personal use. I want to be there when you tell those handicapped fisherman, and every trotliner, jug fisherman and noodler that you are making their sports illegal so you can make catfish a gamefish that only you can catch with a rod and reel.

Here in Illinois, a WHOPPING $35 license and a $3.50 per device fee entitles ANYONE, healthy or otherwise, to drop their own hoop nets.....for commercial GAIN.....(but thats another chapter.)

THIS handicapped fisherman, in Illinois, is NOT required to purchase a fishing license. Yet for the past 5-6 years I STILL purchase one......... perhaps stupidly, thinking that EVERY little bit helps.

We all have OUR reasons to fish.I REALLY dont care If I ever catch another fish on the rivers of this state. The river has been good to me in MANY ways, that perhaps few would/could understand. My concerns are Not for some selfish, MORE fish for ME gain........ My concerns ARE for future generations, and those that have not had a chance to sample the excitement and "high" one gets when doing battle with a "big" fish for the first time in their lives.

[Fishhead1]

My concerns ARE for future generations, and those that have not had a chance to sample the excitement and "high" one gets when doing battle with a "big" fish for the first time in their lives.


Hopefully we all agree on that. :)

[woollyswamper]

Let's take a couple of those questions about my posts:
Q. How many tons of vietnamese fish are sold in the states?
A. Tonage was not listed, but dollar amount is $118,000,000 of the $590,000,000 frozen catfish market annually. That is just from vietnam, who was also charged with using antibiotics in their fish that are illegal here in the states. There are also catfish coming in from China and other Asian and European countries as well. The price per pound from the vietnamese farms is 30 cents. No american fish farm can come close to producing fish under our regulatory and farming cost environment.
Q. I just dont see how imposing REALISTIC slot limits will help keep, or even lure commercial harvesters to or ina a jobe that IS what it IS. Hard work that pays little and literally stinks.
A. The limits on tonage and size would only be attractive to small-time (family) commercial fisherman providing fish to local markets. The economy of scale for mass-harvested fish from public waters would not be there, and it would discourage the use of larger fish solely for dog and cat food markets.

I do like the idea of making the fish smell better, but I am sure some genetic engineer is already working on that one :cool:

[elmer]

The limits on tonage and size would only be attractive to small-time (family) commercial fisherman providing fish to local markets. The economy of scale for mass-harvested fish from public waters would not be there, and it would discourage the use of larger fish solely for dog and cat food markets.

Hmmmmmmmmm........... it does Seems to be a win win situation.
Limits would move the 'big boys' off the water, and todays generation wont want to deal with all the smell and work for little pay.

The whole vietnamese catfish importing thing is interesting, I never knew it even existed. THANKS for the heads up!

[Dwednuts]

When I say slot limits, I mean slot limits. Not one set for the commercial guys and one for us. I mean one slot limit that they and us have to follow, Like 10 catfish limit per day and only one catfish over 34 inches(Any Kind Of Catfish)..... Straight down the line. there are other rough fish to hit instead of the catfish.

[greenwing7]

well after being around a few guys who use hoop nets on the IL river for a living and for personal use all of them that I know have NO desire for large cats and wonder why the government allows them to keep large breeding fish shile the fish they are mainly after are right around the minimum limit (13-17" is what they would like to be able to keep.) but like you all have said the majority of the fish that they catch for the real $ is in the carp, also I had some of the bighead carp, not bad, pretty good for being a slimy bottom feeder LOL just my little bit of info that I had after some first hand meetings with these guys

[Whistler]

http://www.catfish1.com/forums/showpost.php?p=175832&postcount=73

Hey Elmer, you sure have a posting style that seems awful familiar. Someone I remember from the old board. Can't place the name though. I'll have to go look and see if I can figure it out. Were you a member on the old board?

[Fishhead1]

also I had some of the bighead carp, not bad, pretty good for being a slimy bottom feeder


Actually, they are primarily filter feeder; swimming in the water column with their mouth open straining the water (same as paddlefish and big mouth buffalo). Their flesh is white and not oily or overly fishy tasting at all. Small ones you can score like buffalo, big ones you can cut back straps off or cut between each rib (like beef or pork) making individual riblets w/ a nice strip of white meat on them. Bread them, fry them, then slide the flesh off with your teeth. They are awesome like that.

[elmer]

Hey Elmer, you sure have a posting style that seems awful familiar. Someone I remember from the old board. Can't place the name though. I'll have to go look and see if I can figure it out.

Hi Bryan,

I dont understand your post directed to me.

Did I do or say something that has caused you alarm for some reason?

[flathunter]

As you know I am aginst commercial fishing...However, if commercial fishing is leagl in some areas, what about commercial hunting, heck I should be able to go out and kill 100's of deer a year as long as I have a commercial license, and then sell the venison!:mad:

[RamRod]

As you know I am aginst commercial fishing...However, if commercial fishing is leagl in some areas, what about commercial hunting, heck I should be able to go out and kill 100's of deer a year as long as I have a commercial license, and then sell the venison!:mad:

Amen brother!!!

[Katmaster Jr.]

I personally can't stand commercial fishing and already said what I thought about it in this thread.....

http://www.catfish1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11472

[Itch2Scratch]

Missouri identifies catfish as a gamefish. Limits here in most lakes are 5 Blues, 10 Channel Cats and 5 Flats but there is still commercial fishing on parts of the big rivers as I understand it...I guess I need to learn more about this.

[Whistler]

Hi Bryan,

I dont understand your post directed to me.

Did I do or say something that has caused you alarm for some reason?

No sir, there is just a very familiar look to how you post responses to members with opposing viewpoints. Were you a member of the old board by chance? And if so, is your username different now? For me it's just curiosity right now. Thanks.

[Mark J]

This is what I stated earlier in this thread. Commercial guys will find any type of study or (story) to back them up or make themselves look like what they are doing is good for the fisheries.


JW the same holds true for your "sportfishermen".
This battle has raged in NC for years in the saltwater fishery.
Both sides have been known to blatantly lie, pay for "studies" and play dirty politics.
This occurence is not new to man. Every man I ever met will protect his interests, some more so then others.

Living on a pig farm I came to realize there is always someone out to ruin your livelyhood no matter what you do for a living.
This is why I dont have a bit of problem with commercial fishing as long as the laws are being followed.
If you see one that isn't following the law, report him instead of turning what you saw into a fisherman's tale like the Lake dam and the divers.

[IL Hunter]

Are we talking about someone who is cathcing catfish with a hoopnet and selling them without a commercial license? I never quite got that, but if that is the case that is a whole other issue in itself.

[AwShucks]

Okay, lets price fish right up there with gasoline. Nobody should eat fish anyhow. Everyone should walk wherever they are going... neither one of these is going to happen though, so we just grin and bare it... Where is the Terminator when you need him.