Delima...ethics???

[STC T&F]

Someone I know downed his second buck of the season yesterday (illegally). Illegally tagged it, because you are only allow to get one buck with a bow before gun season and then one after gunseason. What would you do? I do not want to get involved because this is a friend of mine and i work with his brother, who has also done the samething this year. I am also aware of his temperment as this would split our families apart, probally not as big of a deal to me as it would be to our children. It is very upsetting because he does not see what is wrong with the picture.

The way I feel is that you take your shot and once you take it you are done and must live with your decision. If you are not happy with your first deer that does not mean you can shoot at a bigger one.

My other issue is the way that him and a few others have turned this into a contest to see who can "kill" the most. Both of his deer are small deer, That even he admitted he tried to talk himself out of shooting. His justification was if I don't shoot it someone else would. I do not know if is tv hunting or what that makes the main point of so many peoples hunt the "kill" or the "trophy" but it is upsetting to me. I am 32 and have only been hunting a few years, and I have yet to take a shot at a deer. I have had many shots but was more concerned with ending my season too soon and missing an opportunity at a bigger deer.

My friend does allow me to hunt on his ground and will decide what he wants harvested from his land, this year is does only. That is his decision and his land so I respect that.

Would I be out of line to question his ethics on his own land?
Have any of you had to deal with something like this before? How did you?
Would you turn in a friend? I know I am making myself just a guilty for not doing it, but???
Advise?

Sorry for the "Dear Abby" post on my first day in the forum, but I did not feel comfortable addressing this in my usual forum.

Thank you,

MJO

[cats4uandme]

an anononus tip would help without getting you in the middle. the game officials often set up a decoy in the area and or stake out the stands. they can enter land even his without permission or warrents. well at least in illinois they can. if there goal is enforcing the game code they can enter any public land or privite without permission.

sounds like maybe you would see more deer if they wern't poaching.

[sal_jr]

Brother, first off, welcome to the BOC.

From your thread I will tell you that your type of thinking is exactly what is welcomed here- People with good minds and a hope toward a cohesive and law abiding future of outdoors for our generation and many to come.

With that said, you have a right as a citizen to defend the property of your state. You do not have an obligation, but you do have a right. Stand up for what you feel is right. Sometimes it can be bothersome or painful, but man was not designed to go with what felt good.... Generally speaking if it feels right chances are its gonna be wrong, but thats another topic for another thread on another day, hahaha

I would talk to the person directly and lay out the issues as you have laid them out here. If they become defensive and irritable, then you know you did well cause nobody faces harsh criticism with machismo unless theyre a politician and their conscience is seared.

Tell the fella that you havent got respect for anyone who breaks the law and the difference between a hunter and a poacher is just that- the law.

No matter how he wants to sugar coat, diffuse, or pull away from the fact, he has to accept that he is not a hunter if he chooses to poach. And getting caught is not the measure, it is the act itself.

I do witsh you luck and I do welcome you once again.

You have a steep climb ahead of you, I wish you strength.

Sal

[Whistler]

Mike, you are gonna get all kinds of advice here about this. People will tell you that the law is the law and he should be fried or that you shouldn't have him as a friend because of this, etc. Here's the only advice you need: Follow your own heart and conscience about this. And whatever you do, make sure you can live with it afterwards, because only you can make this decision. In my opinion, whatever you do is your business and nobody elses. He's your friend, not ours. It's most definately gonna be a hard one for you, that's for sure. If not, you wouldn't be asking.

[Gator]

Mike I was is a spot kind of like your’s once and it did cause a lot of trouble but I turn him in. Now I am not tell you to turn them in and I am not going to tell you not to that is up to you how ever I don’t envy you on this one.

[spoonfish]

Thats allways a bad situation to be in Mike.
When another person puts you in that type of spot it's never going to have a good outcome for all. Youve got some good avice from these guys. You are the one that has to live with your decision, do what you believe is right.

[Marshallmth]

Though thats a tough situation, I would go with your gut instinct. I would Turn them in and or stop hunting with them, and when he approaches you tell him your thoughts.

[TDawgNOk]

First of all, :0a25: to the Brotherhood of Catfishermen!!

Now, as for your questions:


Would I be out of line to question his ethics on his own land?

You would NOT be out of line to question his behavior, if State Regulations say what he is doing is wrong.

Have any of you had to deal with something like this before?

Yes I have, both Hunting/Fishing, and when drugs were involved.

How did you?

I approached my friend and explained that as a friend, I was concerned about them, and this is why........

Would you turn in a friend?

Yes I have. Not only a friend, but also a family member. Was it easy? No, it was gut wrenching, but it was a decision that I felt was right.

Advise?

Micheal, my advise to you would be to go with your gut instinct. One thing I have learned to do before opening my mouth, and saying something to someone, is to ask myself "Will this serve them, will it help them? If I don't, will NOT telling them serve/help them?"

Just from my viewpoint you should ask yourself, "Will it serve my friend if I tell him that what he is doing is wrong?"

Make a list, how it will help on one side, how it will hurt on the other. Just remember, YOU have to answer for YOUR actions AND your inactions.


Sorry for the "Dear Abby" post on my first day in the forum, but I did not feel comfortable addressing this in my usual forum.

You don't need to appologize. That's what Brothers are for. To help you out and give you advice, be it a hunting or fishing delima, or what the best bait to use on the 3rd weekend of July at this little out of the way fishing hole I ran across.

WE are here for ya!!

[Big Country01]

welcome to the boc mike :rock-big:
well you asked for it and you're gonna get it (opinions that is) you'll get alot of good advice here the best two i can come up with is like bryan said follow your heart!!!!!!!
the second is if you do say something to him and he freaks out and blows it all out proportion and breaks off his friendship wyou then he wasn't a good friend in the first place.....
well good luck in your dilemma and remember the boc is here to help!!!!

[armynavy]

Mike I have to agree with whistler on this on you have to do what your heart tells you. Its a tough situation and I hope that I never have to make that call. Good Luck

[hookeye]

You are certainly right to question this fellows ethics,and have recieved some really good replies and some pretty sound common sense advice.
You had stated that the land in which this has happened belongs to this fellow in question and his family. I was wondering if your state grants land owners a farm tag to harvest deer, if so, you might bring that up in conversation and ask if he has one? A farm tag entitles the land owner to harvest more deer than the normal tag legally. Just a thought, but maybe in asking such a question you wouldn't really have to go into it any deeper to get his mind to thinking, and possibly not destroy a long time friendship. In any case the approach will be difficult and require a great deal of tact if you decide to pursue the issue.

You are certainly in a tough spot with this one and I am sure you will make the right decision in any case. I wish you the very best of luck!

[cook]

Mike,your 33 years old.
Do you really need to ask some people you never meet or even know what to do????
Man up and do the right thing,or keep quiet so you can keep hunting his property.

Sorry,but you asked. :confused:

[derbycitycatman]

Isnt it funny this guy says does only and goes ahead and shoots two little bucks. Sounds like he wants it all to himself. Hopefully you could get him with an anonymous tip, so you could still doe hunt. If you do still hunt with him I would go ahead and drop a buck and say the same thing he did. I couldn't talk myself out of it.

[TIM HAGAN]

Man this is deep here but only you can make the call here. I would ask myself does he really need the meat to feed his family? Or was he just killing a buck to kill it, If so i would make that call. I kill about 6 deer a year here i eat one and have some poeple that i give deer too That without that meat times could be very hard over the winter for them. But here i could kill 30 some deer a year so that different. And i only shoot bucks if its bigger then i already have doe's eat better. Good luck with this

[kildog]

Ethics...one person's attempt to coerce another to believe the same way he/she does....
I don't like it when someone wants to preach ethics to me....first ethics change among individuals.
But the law is an entirely different thing.....it is the same for everyone! Like others have said it is your call but at the least I would quit hunting with him before I was guilty by association.
2 situations....one- there was an 88 yr old man that shot deer whenever he had chance on his own property...he lived on social security and could not afford to buy medicine and meat. he had lived off wild game all his life. I knew it and did not turn him in....he had to eat...one time before season he shot one and ask me if I could help him....I did...while in the process a game warden came along and I thought we were in trouble....when the game and fish official found out the true story he issued the man predation permits until his death....very commendable of him. I had no problem with the man needing to eat!
two....I knew a young man who went to school with my son and he would go around at night spotlighting and worse than that ....leaving deer lay after he shot them...I turned him in.... there were some that were mad at me but I felt like it was the right thing to do and he stopped ....so far as I know.
Its all on you to make that decision....like someone else said be ready to live with the decision that you make. good luck. KD

[okiecop]

well at work today a bunch of the guys were talking about filling thier deer tags. We are allowed 2 per year. Anyways it seems to be common thinking around here that if the deer isn't big enough then you just don't tag it. I don't understand this kind of thinking. but i guess for some of them it is just a sport and a way to put meat in the freezer.

I can't really say anything to them about it since I am not a deer hunter as of yet. (will start next year, garunteed). I know from bird hunting that more than your limit will get you in a lot of trouble but these guys seem to think it is ok to take an extra deer or 3 every year. But it doesn't make it right.

[Bayoubear]

our limits here are on the honor system, we dont use tags BUT
when you get busted the hammer falls hard.

headed home from the camp, four wheeler on the trailer behind you, one too many deer in the back of the truck, you get checked.

aside from the court imposed punishments youve already lost your pickup truck, your trailer, your four wheeler, your guns, and whatever else you had with you.

its just not worth it.
our seasons are liberal and so are our limits.
daddy used to tell me when i was a kid....
you abuse a privledge, you lose a privledge.

[cook]

when you get busted the hammer falls hard.



aside from the court imposed punishments youve already lost your pickup truck, your trailer, your four wheeler, your guns, and whatever else you had
Sounds like a C&W song :):)

[on_the_fly]

they know the risk befor hand ( loss of all posetions including truck ,atv, guns) an they still do it they deserve every thing the laws can through at them. we have controled hunting an fishing for a reason. my son an his son or daughter should have every opertunity we do. an so on

[Mutt]

Tough spot to be in. But I am the type that follows the law. I dont care if it is family or friend. There are ways to report them like said before without him knowing it was you. I cant speak for anyone ones but I know I wouldnt be able to have a clear consience if I knew about this person and didnt report them. after all a law is a law.

[STC T&F]

Thanks to everyone for your input. I had a talk with him at deer camp, which resulted in my leaving camp about 2hours after I got there. I tried to explain to him that illegal tagging was poaching and since he doesn't need the meat it would serve everyone including him to let these deer go and have a trophy next year or the year after. He did agree about the size of the deer he took but just did not see a problem with using some elses tag...since it was paid for. It was not a fight but I could see in his eyes he was on the lookout for trouble. I excused myself and went home. two days later I heard him bragging about "horn" hunting with his wife's tag....now I am really pissed!! I called him in. I do not know what if anything was done or checked, but I figure it is in some one elses court now. He has since invited me to his land which I, and decided that I will never hunt there again. I will hunt with him in neutral territory but I do not htink it will happen because the other hunters that took us onto their land do not really want him around either...a big loss for a couple of scrub bucks!!

Thank you brothers,

MJO

[hookeye]

I had a strong feeling you would do the right thing, my hats off to you!

[okiecop]

That was a good thing you did and the right thing too boot. Too bad that you lost a good friend in the deal. But if he is a real friend maybe he'll take your advice and change his ways. Anyway congrats on taking a stand.

[derbycitycatman]

Glad to hear you still have a place to hunt. Its sad someone would put scrub bucks ahead of good hunting. Even if nothing happens now about his illegal tagging at least theyll have his name on record. Maybe theyll keep an eye out for him.

[flathunter]

You done the right thing, you are a sportsman.

[SSG Johnson]

Boy thats a tough one I also have had to stop hunting with a friend this year because of reason I will not get into but its hard if you just stop hunting with him then he will know that you do not approve and he will have lost a good hunting partner. Secondly you would have to prove it will come down to your word agaist his at this point. If I read you right he used someone elses tag on it can you prove that or is this just going to put you in the hot seat and the return is nothing except you have lost your hunting ground a friend, and a hunting partner. My friend knows why I will not hunt with him anymore people like that dont have steady people that they hunt with. I like to know my hunting partner and he know me so if something does happen in the timber then i want someone I can count on. Not someone out for themselfs.

[STC T&F]

I contacted a local agent, andSSG is correct it is my word against his. that is one good thing that agents here do not do: put hunter against hunter. They will investigate the situation take notes, if they have something they will take care of it, if not it goes on file. They never, to my knowledge go to a hunter and say,"so in so said you did this."

Wolfman, where about in MO are you from. I live in Franklin Co. I have a friend here who has land in Putnam Co on the Iowa border. He can only get up here once or twice a month. He finds headless deer often, not to mention alot of vandalism. The local agent up there said they were trying to break a ring of poachers who were only clipping the ear to have the proof for the kill.

[Bayoubear]

Looozyanna finally went uptown and got one of those high fancy mechanical deers. wooo boy. hahaha
seriously tho.... ive seen the thing and standing next to the pickup it was in the back of ya still werent sure it was fake. remote control works the thing, it can lower and raise its head, turn head from side to side, and poke its nose up.

really put a damper on the guys spotlighting deer from roadways. funny thing is too that if ya shoot the thing you also get charged with destruction of state property. LOL good deal.

here is a link to the poaching hotline phone numbers for all fifty states:
http://www.huntingclub.com/IMG_Includes/poacher_sites.html

sad but true that unless the game wardens have legit proof beyond someone's word there is really not much they can do. ive heard tales of an outlaw hunter locally that takes well over fifty deer a year and has since i was a kid, the guy still hasnt gotten busted yet the wardens kno full well who he is and what hes up to.

finding a decent place to hunt can be a pain and a good hunting buddy can be even harder to find but dont settle for less that ideal. unless i know someone's hunting pedigree well i wont take them in the deer woods first. usually its squirrels or coons we go after so i can judge their woods-sense or at the least we will burn up some shells on skeet, targets, or both. while not a failsafe method for sure ive learned that how someone shoots and handles a firearm is quite indicative of their woodsmanship maturity. not a perfect test of course but is still better than nothing. even then if they act stupid in the woods i'll either leave myself if im with them or escort them back to their truck and lock my gate behind them as they leave.

i even do something a little similar when fishing tho its not quite as important i guess. ill have trotlines, yoyo's, etc... already out and have them simply run them with me a time or two. trotlining can be dangerous business if one's not careful and i sure dont need gomer pyle in my boat or in my deer woods.



finding a de