Jet, Mud Motor, or fish far from home?

[Bigfish18]

The problem I have is the Arkansas River in Wichita KS. The river has some decent flatheads in it and the only pressure is from bank fisherman. I have a 16ft modV with a 25hp outboard. I have used it several times on the Akansas River about 50miles further down stream. The river is bigger down there because it has swallowed 2 other rivers. Even in that area I have to get out and pull my boat to knee deep water in order to get going again. There is always enough water to float the boat, just not enough to use the outboard.

Would a jet outboard or a mud motor solve my problem? If so, which one is my best choice?

The river is always at least 8" deep at its shallowest, 99% sand, and my boat sits about 4" deep with a full load.

Thanks
Cody

[zappaf19]

Mudbuddie would be the way to go in my humble opion.
Bill

[KansasKatter]

Cody,

I feel your pain brother! Same goes for the Walnut, it goes from one extreme to another so fast, and lots of rock bottoms! I am either going with a jet, or mud motor come spring. My wife made me a deal, if I can save enough money building the house, I can buy the motor of my choice. Now all I have to do is decide........:roll_eyes:

[loanwizard]

I don't know anything about mud motors. I have a 40 Evinrude jet on the back of my 16 foot Landau Jon boat. With a jet you go full speed into the shallows. By nature it must be on plane and will freak out knowing passerby who will swear you're going to go aground. On plane it will go in less than 6 inches of water. I wouldn't be without one in the waters I ply.

[Bigfish18]

Yea kansaskatter we both know this pain dont we. I would love to live near a big river but all my family is here.

Loanwizard, would a river composed of sand cause any problems to a jet?

Thanks
Cody

[KansasKatter]

I have heard the sand eats up impellers big time on a jet. I am going after a mud motor, the one linked below. For a lot of reasons. One being it is a 4 stroke motor, very similar to a large lawn tractor, easy to work on and find parts for. No maintenance, and it looks pretty much bulletproof to me! I like the short tail rather than the long tail too! I am looking into the Kohler 25hp model.

http://www.mudbuddy.com/HyperSport.htm

[Bigfish18]

Ive been checking into the mud buddy hyper drive sport because it has neutral. Mud buddy also offers a console steering setup. I would really like to keep my stick steering setup so im not setting in the back of the boat.

Cody

[Mr.T]

A RiverPro might be what you need -- http://www.riverpro-boats.com/ -- be sure to read this article too: http://www.riverpro-boats.com/pages/news/Kansas_River.shtml

Saw an episode of In-Fisherman the other day where they were fishing for blue cats on the Red River in Oklahoma and using an air boat to move around - they could get to parts of the river that *nothing* else could.

[Bigfish18]

Theres only two things I dont like about the riverpro boats. The price tag and they are to much like bass boats.

Tracker had a boat called the 185jet that uses the same engine I think. I have a tracker though and I probly would never buy one again.

Cody

[loanwizard]

I don't know how much sand there is in your river. I do know that I used one in the Osage River below Bagnall Dam with one with no problem. Jet impellers come with 6-7 shims so that as they wear they can be adjusted. You also want to know how much sand is in the top 6 inches of water for once it is on plane that is where it is getting the water supply. One thing about a jet. It will go in 4 inches as long as it has got you on plane. If you try to begin in the riffle, you ain't going no where. Every motor has its positives and negatives. I'd like to see on of those mud motors, but a 35 isn't near enough motor for me. Heck, I wish mine was a 60/45 or even a 90/65..... Next boat is gonna have a 115! :wink:

[KansasKatter]

Shawn, the Arkansas is ALL sand, litterally. From what I have read and understand, a 50hp prop motor is equal to a 75hp jet, so maybe a smaller prop motor would get you where you would need to be?

I really like the whole 4 stroke lawn mower type engine, either Briggs and Stratton, Honda, or Kohler. The fact I can take it to ANY small engine shop for anything I can't do myself is VERY nice.

[Bigfish18]

Well guys I just talked to a mud motor guy and he said that the sand is terrible hard on the props. I guess I could buy new props but they are pricy.

I was on the Mercury site looking at the powerplants used in riverpro boats and Mercury doesnt want you running in water shallower then 3ft.


This is a hard one.
Cody

[KansasKatter]

Cody,

I am not to worried about the sand and props thing, I don't see how the sand could be that hard on the prop, unless you were just running the prop into about 3" of sand CONSTANTLY, otherwise, how much damage could it cause?

I wonder if you took a prop and welded some edges on the "cutting" edge of the prop, like they do to strengthen chisels on a plow to make them last longer. I wonder if you could do that and still make the prop work. That way you could have one prop for the Arkansas, keep the edges "built up" as to keep it from wearing away the prop? It may not be as effecient, but it would sure make it last longer, you could switch props for other waters............:confused2:

It works on saw blades, farm implements, trenchers, excavators, why not a prop??:confused2:

[riddleofsteel]

Face it man.....sand is grit, abrasive, ect. If you want to motor in shallow water you are gonna pay sonner or later. Jets, and props on outboards also wear in sandy conditions.
Mud motor props can be rewielded and recupped. Mud motor props aren't cheap but have you looked at outboard props lately? Not to mention the coast of a lower housing for an outboard.
The conditions you described are made to order for a surface drive mud motor. They use them in big rock rivers like the Yukon, Snake, and the upper Missouri all the time. My suggestion is to go look at some motors and boat combos. You can't be the only guy boating on those waters. What do the other folks in your area use?

[KansasKatter]

Face it man.....sand is grit, abrasive, ect. If you want to motor in shallow water you are gonna pay sonner or later. Jets, and props on outboards also wear in sandy conditions.
Mud motor props can be rewielded and recupped. Mud motor props aren't cheap but have you looked at outboard props lately? Not to mention the coast of a lower housing for an outboard.
The conditions you described are made to order for a surface drive mud motor. They use them in big rock rivers like the Yukon, Snake, and the upper Missouri all the time. My suggestion is to go look at some motors and boat combos. You can't be the only guy boating on those waters. What do the other folks in your area use?

LOL they fish from the bank, or out of canoes and kayaks.:big_smile: I am sold on the mud motor, and plan on getting one come spring.

How about my question though, could you "beef up" the edges of the prop with some welds to make it stronger and wear longer? I realize you will lose some performance, but if you kept that one prop just for this application, and switched back under normal situations, I think it would work pretty well.

How do they work in normal waters, such as lakes? I was thinking of keeping my outboard for the weekends at the lake, and use the mud motor for the river trips only. If they perform well on the lakes as well though, I will sell my outboard to help offset the cost.

[KansasKatter]

Another awesome looking shallow water motor option!

http://www.prodriveoutboards.com/motors.htm

[brad kilpatrick]

Face it man.....sand is grit, abrasive, ect. If you want to motor in shallow water you are gonna pay sonner or later. Jets, and props on outboards also wear in sandy conditions.
Mud motor props can be rewielded and recupped. Mud motor props aren't cheap but have you looked at outboard props lately? Not to mention the coast of a lower housing for an outboard.
The conditions you described are made to order for a surface drive mud motor. They use them in big rock rivers like the Yukon, Snake, and the upper Missouri all the time. My suggestion is to go look at some motors and boat combos. You can't be the only guy boating on those waters. What do the other folks in your area use?

From what I saw of the Mud Buddy props they look to be pretty tough. Your gonna have to run through a ton of sand before You do any considerable damage to one. $210-$240 seems like a bargan ,My SS prop for My 90 HP Merc was $300 And That was the cheapest one I could find.

[Bigfish18]

It looks like im going to go with a mud motor. I would like to thank all of you that posted on this topic. Brad, I have read alot of your post and you know river fishin from what I can see. I recently went on a trip with the Catdaddy RR Shumway. We put in at Eudura, and the river was low from what Shumway said. At that flow the Arkansas is half as wide and half as deep. The Arkansas is almost identical to the Kansas. Just half the size.

Thanks
Cody

[brad kilpatrick]

Cody,
I've seen the arkansas river in Wichita, but I've never fished it. From what I've seen of the Arkansas The Mud motor will serve You well. Just like the Kaw but half her size.....sounds like Flathead heaven!!!! I wouldn't imagine the fishing pressure is all that great,plus its hard to navigate. With that mud motor sounds like Your gonna be a whole lot more mobile then most guys out there. With a little luck You should get into some monster flats this summer.

Did you get into any fish when You went out with Catdaddy? I've met Him and He seems like a pretty good ole boy.

I used to fish the Kaw for Flatheads all the time around the Desoto area. I now live in Kansas City Ks, minutes away from Kaw point. I Fish the Missouri River a bunch, and the Kaw when its up and running, targeting Big Blue Cats almost exclusivly.

[peewee williams]

Cody,

I am not to worried about the sand and props thing, I don't see how the sand could be that hard on the prop, unless you were just running the prop into about 3" of sand CONSTANTLY, otherwise, how much damage could it cause?

I wonder if you took a prop and welded some edges on the "cutting" edge of the prop, like they do to strengthen chisels on a plow to make them last longer. I wonder if you could do that and still make the prop work. That way you could have one prop for the Arkansas, keep the edges "built up" as to keep it from wearing away the prop? It may not be as effecient, but it would sure make it last longer, you could switch props for other waters............:confused2:

It works on saw blades, farm implements, trenchers, excavators, why not a prop??:confused2:I have a 9 horse "Go-Devil."I got the 9 because 10 hp.and under is the State and Federal hp.limit on many of the areas that I fished.Shallow sandy water has caused very bad prop erosion with Stainless and aluminum props on all of my motors at times.The Go-Devil weedless prop erodes across the face of the blades as well as the edge like standard props do.You use to be able to get your props rebuilt as you suggested.They have to be done as you say by building up,with welding rods of various types.You can even use very hard materials for this.I have spent weeks at a time doing this to pump impellers and augers in a pulp mill.High speed impellers or propellers of any type have to be machined and balanced afterward.If not,they will vibrate and shake your motor apart.Being circular and the speed is where the balance problem arises.Also a hard surface will often break or shatter upon impact with a object.For years I use to have my props rebuilt at 1/2 the price of a new one at a place called Champion in Savannah Georgia.Wear,broken blades and bushings.They did it all.peewee

[Bigfish18]

Brad, I just want to tell you that you live in heaven. Monster flats and blues around that area. I plan on fishing the kansas a few times next year because the topend size is larger in the kaw. I personaly know of no one that runs the arkansas with a prop or jet boat, so I should be able to fish spots that have no pressure. 50 miles south of wichita has some boat traffic but it is all v8 airboats that probably scare the fish out of the water.

The Catdaddy is very professional, and polite. I had a good time, but as we have all experienced sometimes the fish just dont bite. We fished from 6pm til 6am with only a small blue to brag about. One thing I was impressed with on the kaw was the wing dikes. We would be cruising in 2 feet of water and boom 22 feet. We dont have any holes that deep around here. After a big flood the holes will be up to about 15 feet, but the sand slowly fills them back in. Just not enough current to keep the holes cleaned out.

Maybe one day I will move to catfish heaven KC.
Cody

[riddleofsteel]

After re-reading your original post I noticed you have a modified v hull boat.

If you match a surface drive motor with a .100 or .125 flat, SMOOTH bottom hull you will draw less water, run faster and not have to worry about your river trips destroying your boat. Of course this means shucking out some bucks. The rig I really want would set me back just under $9000.00! However if you are like me (financially challenged). You can set up a decent river, swamp rig for a whole lot less.

One of the down sides of a mud motor is speed. It's no coincidence that mud motor guys are always talking about how fast thier particular rig can go (always verified by GPS of course). The reason is that most mud motor technology come from the original long tail mud motors like the Go-Devil. Fairly low HP combined with an inefficent prop angle resulted in some slow top end speeds. The joke is always that the outboards pass you in the channel but you pass them in the swamp.
Surface drives solved a lot of that by putting the prop drive shaft parallel to the water surface. This means a more efficent prop angle. Some estimates put long tails losing up to 20% of thier HP due to prop angle. The surface drive also drives a lot more like a traditional outboard. Without the long tail they turn sharper and are easier to steer. Most modern surface drives use larger engines with some up to 45 HP. Most have neutral and some have reverse. Most have either power trim or you turn a crank to trim the prop depth. Prodrive has a full power reverse that is a real blessing when your boat is stuck in knee deep mud.
How fast these surface drives can drive your boat depends a lot on your transom angle and hull design. Like I said a smooth, flat bottom boat will have less drag and get up on plane faster. Add to that the way these smooth bottom boats scoot thru mud, over logs and sand bars.

Long tail or Surface drive?

Let your pocketbook and needs be your guide. At 50 years old I am not quite as concerned about how fast I get to my favorite duck hole or fishing spot as I used to be. Getting to ANY spot I want means more to me. My 13 HP Honda engine is dead simple, easy on gas and I can work on it with simple tools. Plus it pushes my 16x48 pretty good. If you travel a lot of open water like big lakes or ocean keep your outboard or better yet get a seperate mud rig. Switching engines is a real hassle. Top sppeds on a balanced Surface drive mud rig with a proper hull is not much above 30 MPH. A long tail on a semi v hull may be only half that. Keep that in mind as you decide

[brad kilpatrick]

cody,
Next season If You ever want to make the trip up to KC for a night of chasing some blues drop me a PM. The fishing here can be feast or famine, but we seem to manage putting fish in the boat more often then not. Here for the last 3 out of the last 4 weeks We've put a 40 lb blue in the boat. Of course the one skunking we took was in a tourny @ St Jo that Catdaddy won. The fishing sucked that day as Catdaddy won with a skinny little 2.3lb channel cat. That winning fish couldn't even wrap its mouth around My bait....lol, oh well live and learn I suppose.

The only time I would discourage You from coming up here to fish is early summer late may thru june. the spawn is usaly in full swing here and We can't buy a bite!

[Bigfish18]

Brad, I never turn down a fishin trip.

Riddleofsteel, my boat is really a flatbottom with a v nose. I plan on going with a hyper drive sport 31hp from mud buddy.

Cody

[KansasKatter]

Cody,

You won't be the only one zooming down the Arkansas next year.......so stay outta my way! :wink:

That is assuming I get my house built by spring..........:crazy:

[Bigfish18]

This river isnt wide enough for two boats. Ill just have to fish out of yours.

[SC Hartwell]

I heard that jets can eat through gas! I have a 40 hp evinrude that I run through stumpville. It's old so it won't hurt me too bad if one of those stumps eats my prop.

[KansasKatter]

Hey Cody,

I was talking to a guy with a Mud Buddy motor the other day up by Hutch, he had the long tail version. I was talking to him about the newer surface drive models, and that I was thinking of getting one. He said he used to have one, but traded it for the long tail model he is running now. He said the prop on the surface drive like the sport are just to big for the shallow water/sand he runs in (Arkansas) and if you get stopped you will never get started with the larger props. The smaller props on the long tails, along with the angle of drive into the water, works much better. According to him.

I am still looking into a Pro-Drive, but they are so darn heavy!

Later

PS - Do you do residential plumbing or commercial? I may need some help on my house if you are looking for a little extra money for that motor?:roll_eyes:

PM me and let me know if you are interested.

[mspratt]

A RiverPro might be what you need -- http://www.riverpro-boats.com/ -- be sure to read this article too: http://www.riverpro-boats.com/pages/news/Kansas_River.shtml

Saw an episode of In-Fisherman the other day where they were fishing for blue cats on the Red River in Oklahoma and using an air boat to move around - they could get to parts of the river that *nothing* else could.
SPEAKING OF air boats >>>check this one out>>>>>>>>>>>.