Anyone using 2-sonars

[onlyriverfish]

Have done some searching re using 2-sonar units on this site but not much found. I gather that as long as they are using different freq. then it will work(?).

I thought for some time about getting a sidefinder, but wasnt willing to spend/use the 1000.00plus units that had them.

Comes down to what do I want to accomplish with the 2-units. What I want to do is graph a larger area so I can more quickly understand the structure below w/o having to pass many times over it as now-and still not feeling 100% sure about the current break (or missing the whole picture). I am graphing 10-30ft and the 1-lowrance covers a small cone area.

Wondering if a cheaper wider angle, maybe shoot thru hull would work. Anyone tried this?

thanks.
James

[FishMan]

I have two but don't use them both at the same time.

[Doctor]

I'm running a Lowrance 111C Hd unit and a Humminbird Matrix 67 on the back of my boat.

The Lowrance is 200, the Bird is 200/50 but I don't fish deep enough water to use the 50 so I keep it on 200 all the time.

Have no issues with interference at all with the two units, got the back of the boat covered and both do a great job. The Lowrance over shadows the Humminbird with it's large screen but I trust what the Humminbird tells me as much as the Lowrance.

Doc

[zappaf19]

I have a flsher in my hual and it seems to work well. I also have a Bottom line finder and have no problem with both turned on.
Bill

[onlyriverfish]

I'm running a Lowrance 111C Hd unit and a Humminbird Matrix 67 on the back of my boat.

The Lowrance is 200, the Bird is 200/50 but I don't fish deep enough water to use the 50 so I keep it on 200 all the time.

Have no issues with interference at all with the two units, got the back of the boat covered and both do a great job. The Lowrance over shadows the Humminbird with it's large screen but I trust what the Humminbird tells me as much as the Lowrance.

Doc
Hi Tim,
I take it then that as long as the xducers are different freq. (lowrance192Khz and Hbird 200Khz) they work together. So you put them beside each other? Did you ever consider thru hull up at front? What do you find using them-whats your take on having two? Are you better interpeting the structure below-how has using two helped?

Im wondering if one at front (thru hull) might provide better "historical" view and just help verify what I think I see(?).
Thanks!

[Doctor]

James,

Well you can tell I was up way to early this morning when I posted, the Lowrance is a 200 khz. transducer with a 12 degree cone angle, the Humminbird is a dual beam transducer 200 khz and 83 khz. with a 20 degree and 60 degree cone angles. I very seldom use the 83 khz. as I don't fish deep enough water.

My boat is 84 inches acroos the back on the bottom, the transducers are located 24 inches from the edge and are about 34 inches away from each other centerline, both are located about 17 inches from the centerline of the boat and are located between a set of ribs.

I have had no problems with the units cross talking with each other, when I am on the river I run a Zig Zag pattern so that I get a overall better picture of the bottom that I am scanning, both units will mark about the same structure but the Lowrance is higher detail than the Humminbird which is a major learning curve for me to deal with, the sceen is twice the size of the Humminbird so I reference to the Humminbird a lot because it is monochrome and greyscale the Lowrance is color.

Because my boat is aluminuim I don't run thru hull units.

I like the two units because I can use them to verify each other, plus having the color unit to deal with the Humminbird teaches me what the color unit is seeing because I'm used to the monochrome screen and the higher detail on the Lowrance is just tough for me to interpet, but the high detail really shows you a lot more than I would have ever imagined.

I spent a lot of time talking to Doc Samson who is a walleye pro about the color units and running twin sonars, he is looking for 17-24 inch fish where I'm looking for 3-4 footers, details for him are far more critical than they are for me because he is looking for smaller fish, but his knowledge of electronics is just awesome, I'm still in pre-school on the color units compared to him because he retired as an MD to make a living catching fish, he likes the twin sonar because it will give you more coverage of the bottom, and you can verify each other.

Last week I marked a Blue that was holding near a boulder on the Ohio river with the Lowrance and confirmed it with the Humminbird, if the Humminbird hadn't been on board I would have passed that fish up because it didn't look right on the Lowrance again I have a major learning curve to work thru with the Lowrance.

Doc

[onlyriverfish]

Very cool Tim,
thanks.
I think I will try two also and mount them the same way as I do zig zag too. I just have to research the wider angle xducer bit more though as still think it would add that broad coverage!

I may have to adjust my lowrance as I have been running it at the chine. Cant get full speed detail yet.

My prediction is that the big blue cats future population will suffer due to electronics being able to graph large areas and effectivly lay out a 3-D view of bottom terrain while marking fish accuratly! Think the sonar will play a large part in blues decimation of 100lbers and big ones in our own lifetime will be 40-50lbs.:angry:


Add to it that we humans being their only predator are getting more interested in them and thus wiser to em. Unfortunatly Im betting the laws will be too far behind to save em.

[oldprowler]

well, I guess it is up to us humans to be ahead of the law and save the blues. There is no reason to kill every big blue caught just because the law says you can. You will see several times every week someone on this board releasing a 50+ blue back into the water. As sportsmen and conservationists we should practice the the maximum extent CPR (Catch, Photograph and Release) thus preserving our fisheries.

[blackwaterkatz]

Tim, that's interesting reading, friend. I have the 107c df and it has the 200 mhz/12 degree (and 50mhz/35 degree which I don't use) transducer, so I've been curious to see how others with a similar unit liked it. The old eagle I had used a 20 degree, as do most 200 khz. There is a little more detail, but the coverage area is smaller. I've considered adding the eagle back on the boat, just for the reasons that you use two units.
And James, I truly don't think the electronics will harm the fish population in the foreseeable future. LOL Most people don't understand how to use the sonar as well as they could, anyway. IMHO I mark many, many more fish than I ever put in the boat. :tounge_out:

[Doctor]

Tommy,

When I bought my Lowrance I decided not to go with the dual freq. transducer mainly because over the years I had destroyed a couple of them traveling on the river during high debris and at $165.00 a transducer I felt that the cost for replacement may be a tad overwhelming, the single freq. is just around $70.00 Doc Samson had told me if I wasn't fishing in waters 100 foot or deeper I was throwing money away.

Lynn got the Humminbird from the factory as a gift for catching her 88# Blue during a US cats tournament, it came with the dual freq. transducer but it is small compared to the Lowrance duals........Doc

[blackwaterkatz]

That dual freq. xmtr is pretty large, compared to the single. I don't really need the 50mhz anyway. Lowrance doesn't list any other transducer as an option, but I was thinking of contacting their tech support and see if I could use one made for say, the x102c. Their is a difference in power, but other than that, they are very similar. I like the detail of the 12 deg cone, but I think I would prefer the old 20 degree if I can get one to work with my unit. Those narrow cones are designed for deeper water and more detail, but I would like to try the wider cone angle and see how it compares.

[Doctor]

My LMS 350-A had a twenty degree cone and I have on my website the area of coverage for the 20 degree cone, looks like I'm going to have to develop one for the 12 degree cone so I know just how much coverage area under the boat I'm looking at.............Doc

[blackwaterkatz]

My LMS 350-A had a twenty degree cone and I have on my website the area of coverage for the 20 degree cone, looks like I'm going to have to develop one for the 12 degree cone so I know just how much coverage area under the boat I'm looking at.............Doc
Tim, don't hold me to it, but I read somewhere that a 12 deg cone would be 1/5 of the depth. If in 30' of water the cone would cover approx. 6', and I actually plotted that out on a cad program, and that number seems to be a good one. Of course you can actually read more than 12 deg, but that is significantly less than a 20 deg. The tradeoff is more detail and the ability to pick out smaller objects, especially in deeper water.
I'm not complaining about the smaller cone angle; it just takes some adjustment on my part.

[blackwaterkatz]

I just read back over my last post. Sounds pretty technical in a sense. As I said before, I'm no expert, but I'm trying to learn all I can about sonar to suit my needs. The subject of cone angle may be one to expand on, for anyone interested. This is another excerpt from a lowrance tutorial pertaining to cone angles:

Transducer Cone Angles:
The transducer concentrates the sound into a beam. When a pulse of sound is transmitted from the transducer, it covers a wider area the deeper it travels. If you were to plot this on a piece of graph paper, you would find that it creates a cone shaped pattern, hence the term "cone angle." The sound is strongest along the center line or axis of the cone and gradually diminishes as you move away from the center.
In order to measure the transducer's cone angle, the power is first measured at the center or axis of the cone and then compared to the power as you move away from the center. When the power drops to half (or -3db[decibels] in electronic terms), the angle from that center axis is measured. The total angle from the -3db point on one side of the axis to the -3db point on the other side of the axis is called the cone angle.
This half power point (-3db) is a standard for the electronics industry and most manufacturers measure cone angle in this way, but a few use the -10db point where the power is 1/10 of the center axis power. This gives a greater angle, as you are measuring a point further away from the center axis. Nothing is different in transducer performance; only the system of measurement has changed. For example, a transducer that has an 8 degree cone angle at -3db would have a 16 degree cone angle at -10db.
Lowrance offers transducers with a variety of cone angles. Wide cone angles will show you more of the underwater world, at the expense of depth capability, since it spreads the transmitter's power out. Narrow cone angle transducers won't show you as much of what's around you, but will penetrate deeper than the wide cone. The narrow cone transducer concentrates the transmitter's power into a smaller area. A bottom signal on the sonar unit's display will be wider on a wide cone angle transducer 20 degree angle / 8 degree angle than on a narrow one because you are seeing more of the bottom. The wide cone's area is much larger than the narrow cone.
High frequency (192 - 200 kHz) transducers come in either a narrow or wide cone angle. The wide cone angle should be used for most freshwater applications and the narrow cone angle should be used for all saltwater applications. Low frequency (50 kHz) sonar transducers are typically in the 30 to 45 degree range. Although a transducer is most sensitive inside its specified cone angle, you can also see echoes outside this cone; they just aren't as strong. The effective cone angle is the area within the specified cone where you can see echoes on the display. If a fish is suspended inside the transducer's cone, but the sensitivity is not turned up high enough to see it, then you have a narrow effective cone angle. You can vary the effective cone angle of the transducer by varying the receiver's sensitivity. With low sensitivity settings, the effective cone angle is narrow, showing only targets immediately beneath the transducer and a shallow bottom. Turning the sensitivity control up increases the effective cone angle, letting you see targets farther out to the sides.

[onlyriverfish]

I just read back over my last post. Sounds pretty technical in a sense. As I said before, I'm no expert, but I'm trying to learn all I can about sonar to suit my needs. The subject of cone angle may be one to expand on, for anyone interested. This is another excerpt from a lowrance tutorial pertaining to cone angles:
Tommy,
Thanks for putting that up there! I read that the other day,but the part about the sensitivity to cone angle size is definitly worth repeating (several times)!

Basically saying go ahead and pepper the screen more for us guys looking for bottom feeders as we cover more area, but we will loose some detail of baitfish (or water column clarity) by adding screen clutter. There are times that it may be the smart thing to do.
Im figuring that to run two unit they must be different brands so freq. wont conflict unless Lowrance unit you refer to is different freq.(?).


What about those Hummingbird 3-D units? Do they average out the point details too much?

They are pretty pricey too, but this is for very impotant stuff. Ha HA

[onlyriverfish]

Here's a link I used awhile ago for some cone angle info from Marine News (good writeup): [Link only for Registered Members]

[blackwaterkatz]

That is a good link, James. I don't think I had seen that article before, although I have seen much of the same info.
I don't have any experience with the humminbird sidefinders. To me, the screen is like looking at an old blueprint, but I know it's because I'm not used to using one.
Here's what lowrance says about using two sonars:


Can I install two transducers (sounders) on one boat?

Anytime you use multiple transducers (sounders) of the same frequency, it is possible for them to interfere with each other. This is despite any specified distance between them as coverage areas and depth of water generally allow each to crosstalk. This appears as two specific fault indications. Dark vertical bars will appear on one sounder displaying the transmit burst of the other sounder. This cannot be changed but it is more livable than the other fault. If one unit picks up the echo return of the other unit, it can rapidly change from reading 20-30 feet to suddenly indicating 300- then 500- then 800 feet etc.

This effect can be reduced or eliminated using the ping speed controls of our latest models of sonar devices. When a unit jumps depth ranges, adjust the ping speed 1 setting slower, this will change the rep rate, and cycle time so that the sonar devices cannot sink up together. This will reduce or completely eliminate this problem.

[onlyriverfish]

Just mounted a hummingbird 640x320 3D last night that has 6 xducers 482khz(?) and will use next to Lowrance x125.
Plan to try tonight.

[gcarlin]

I Use 2 Fishfinders On My Boat And Have Never Had Any Problems.good Luck With Yours

[bluejay]

Have 2 on my boat. Lowrance 332c at console and 125 on trolling motor. Like to be able to look at map and sonar at the same time on full screen.

[jim]

Lowrance has just come out with a 83/200 DUAL SEARCH transducer that gives 120 degrees of coverage.It only goes with 2 finders right now the X96/X86.The transducer transmits both signals at the same time providing the expanded coverage.Lowrance also has Bolt Thru hull transducers which is what I would do before going thru hull.Its hard to get a good thru hull installation and the capability of the finder is degraded somewhat.Funny this thread came up because I called Lowrance yesterday because my 50/200 transducer went bad this weekend.At least the 200 kh crystal went bad but the 50 worked fine, saving the day.That is one advantage of the dual.Units having the split screen capabilty can give you let you see both at the same time increasing your coverage OR allowing you to see a two transducer setup which is cheaper than two units.The tech rep also told me and I had heard this before that transducers are good for 2 yrs three at the max before they begin to deteriorate and go bad.Send for a Lowrance catalog which shows all their finders and transducers:smile2: When the Lowrance Green Box original fish finder came out back in the 50s many very knowledgeable fishing editors of the major outdoor magazines immediatley predicted that fish populations would be decimated by this "Newfangled and Unsportsman like Technology.It would take all the fun and challenge out of fishing and there wouldn't be any fish left.Obviously these dire predictions haven't come anywhere near the truth just as the gun writers predicted Scopes were unfair and all the deer and elk would be killed by gamehogs using them.Real men used iron sights was the conventional wisdom of the day.In my case the scope allowed me to see clearly where I had missed HAHAHAHAHA:lol: :smile2: :ooooh:

[blackwaterkatz]

Hi, Jim.
I called Lowrance, and they say I can eliminate the df transducer, and use a wider cone angle 200khz skimmer, p/n 106-72. The one I have is 12 deg, designed for deep water, which I don't go into. I think I'll order one as soon as I can and give it a try. I'm getting ready to head up to the lakes right now, though.

[jim]

Thats what I was going to suggest the wider angle 200.I just like having the dual capabilty in case one goes bad.I also think that bigger dual is more stable and gives better readings at speed.I have always had the clearest picture at high speed but maybe I just got lucky with the adjustment.You lucky dog going fishing while the rest of us slave away defending the country.I think you shoud anchor right in front of the bridge pilings and see if you can stir up a flathead bite.:smile2:

[onlyriverfish]

Well after 8 night- hours fishing/testing the dual sonars (x125 and new bird matrix 47 3D) have some opinions.
Its interesting having the two and watching bottom contours and how each compare. I can see possibillity where fish might not be seen having just one sonar.
The birds 640 pixel and some details show better than lowrance, but the lowrance is such smarter designed and better quality. Also no problem w/crosstalk at all (of course-diff. freq.).

*The bird doesnt have backlit buttons-PAIN at night!
*Bird got quirky in shallow water and had to remove power completely several times for hard reset.
*Bird doesnt behave as well in auto-IMO. Plenty times saw fish on lawrance and didnt on bird.
*Birds 3-D is kinda worthless IMO. Maybe theres adj. I didnt do (doubt it) or something, but it just aint there yet. Figured before I bought that if it were majical then every brand would have a model.
*True-I just dont like birds-they rate the cone angle using -10db when its industry std to use 3db-Makes comparing units hard.
*That huge puck is a problem with drag-caused motor cavitation and sprays all over. I set middle of xducer to hull bottom on my Sea Ark.
* Several times backlight wouldnt stay on after "enter" pushed (quirky).


If had to have only one it would be the lowrance for sure.

Bought Bird from Bass pro and said 30 day money back so figuring to return it. Have to find anyother one since now spoiled watching two.:lol:

So still looking. Spent 500 on the matrix and like to spend little less on next one.

Thanks for the info guys so far.

[onlyriverfish]

One thing I do like about the bird is the easy monting bracket as I leave boat outside and install/remove every trip.
I have a Lowranc x85 just sitting around. Thinking its lower res(240? 360?) and xducer freq would be problem running with my new Lowrance x125.

Not completely sure. Any xducer other than 192 or 200? dont think so.

How dumb is it that bird doesnt backlight thier buttons!!!!!

[jim]

Ill tell you how dumb that is>:crazy: The first fish finder I had anything to do with was a Bird and it didn't have any night light capability at all.That was almost 20 years ago.I wrote them with a few suggestions and as far as I can see they havent changed anything.Not that they are a bad company because they didn't listen to me but nightlighting is critical,hell if every body listend to and adopted all my suggestions I'd only talk to women.HEHEHE:cool2: :big_smile: :lol: :ooooh: Bird has never come close to Lowrance and some of the other really good finders in features or performance.:smile2:

[blackwaterkatz]

One thing I do like about the bird is the easy monting bracket as I leave boat outside and install/remove every trip.
I have a Lowranc x85 just sitting around. Thinking its lower res(240? 360?) and xducer freq would be problem running with my new Lowrance x125.

Not completely sure. Any xducer other than 192 or 200? dont think so.

How dumb is it that bird doesnt backlight thier buttons!!!!!
James, the frequency is built into the sonar unit, so you have to match what the sonar is designed for. In my case, I have dual frequency (50/200khz) so I can use either or both. Not sure about the x85, but most of the newer lowrance units have adjustable ping speed, so if the 2 units are at different speeds, they are supposed to interfere with each other as much if at all. I know the x125 has adjustable, so you could probably run that and the x85 together by fine tuning if needed.
As for the backlight on the bird units, I was under the impression the had a built in candle holder. Guess I was wrong....:big_smile:

[Doctor]

Several times backlight wouldnt stay on after "enter" pushed (quirky).



Toggle the arrows at the top right or left and the light stays on took me a bit to learn that trick as I was doing the same thing with the matrix 67...........Doc

[onlyriverfish]

lowrance units have adjustable ping speed,
might have to try the ping with my x125. Sounds like ping may adj freq.?
Hadnt thought of that-good tip! Thanks Tommy.

Tim, I figured that out too re using right arrow key. Just a pain and kinda stupid of em. I find bird is just a hassle adj things at night and it doesnt feel "solid" like lowrance. I also marked a fish twice other night and bird didnt see it(?). not sure what to make of that as I was moving such that both xducers went right over it.

The comparison experience though of seeing 640 and 480 pixel and understanding how the 480 "averages" out the structure more than 640 is priceless! Cant wait to get a 1024 or higher.

To be fair I have seen things with the bird that lowrance didnt display good enough to properly interpret as well being bird is 640 pixel. Birds fuzzy - blurry compared to L.

[blackwaterkatz]

I've been out of town for a few days, but I received a new wider angle 200 mhz transducer while I was gone, and plan to install it today. I think I will install it on the opposite side of the transom from the dual frequency, so I can compare them both, or use either one as I want to.
Actually, I had 2 delivered. I had ordered from lowrance, then got an email telling me the unit was out of stock and backordered, with delivery up to 2 weeks, so I was free to get one elsewhere if I wanted to. Went online and found one in stock, ordered same, and emailed lowrance to cancel order. Soon I got another email from them: "sorry, can't cancel, order already shipped, but will mail you a fedex shipping form so the extra unit can be returned at no charge, will credit you as soon as received." I thought that was really a nice gesture on the part of lowrance, another sign of their ecxellent service.

[onlyriverfish]

Didnt like that Hbird so returned it. Still like having two and not found a good second one yet.
Did try anyother Lowrance (actually a Eagle) 480x480 and vaerified that the result is that the two will take turns "screwing each other up" ocasionally.
No supprise. Running two they must be different freq. to work properly.

[blackwaterkatz]

I've got an eagle fishmark 480, too; using it on another boat now. It is an excellent unit for the dollar. It also has adjustable ping speed. Did you try using different ping speeds on the two units to see if that helped (per Lowrance's recommendation)?

[onlyriverfish]

I've got an eagle fishmark 480, too; using it on another boat now. It is an excellent unit for the dollar. It also has adjustable ping speed. Did you try using different ping speeds on the two units to see if that helped (per Lowrance's recommendation)?

Yeah I agree Tommy-they are nice units. Id be happy with it alone. Sometimes felt like it did better than x125, but was kinda back and forth.
Did try every ping change, but still got crossed signals intermittently.:sad2:
Guess I will have to use a bird. Maybe a lower dollar one, but same 640x480.

[blackwaterkatz]

James, have you tried calling or emailing Lowrance about your question (calling gets a faster response). They may be able to offer you a simple solution????